Dwatkins

Considering his lively hood and the position the hobby is in right now STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!

ksaves2

If the owner approached him in advanced of the pending sale, there really wasn't anything he could do about it. He should have made other arrangements. I could see where Paul might be stressed out in trying to find another place to relocate economically but that doesn't justify the action he took for a parting shot. I don't think this has any negative reflection on the hobby.

In fact, I think that this strongly supports what most rocketeers already know. Mixing composite propellent can be carried out safely with a modicom of caution. I mean, he was doing this legally, grandfathered in as the article says, in a residental area and nothing happened negatively with the operation of AMW. All the more reason our composite propellants and components need to be taken away from ATF purview.

Kurt

DumasBro2

I thinjk I'll wait until all the facts are in, not just what the media reports to make any judgements on this. A cardboard tube with "Kryptonite, bla, bla, bla" writen on the side doesn't seem too bomb like to me, but I'll wait.

aerostadt

The decision should be that if there is a potential for bad publicity for our hobby that reflects on all of us, just don't do it! Enough facts are already in to show that the authorities took extra precautions (In general, they will take extra safety measures, because even the slightest chance of being wrong is too costly), creating extra expense for us, the tax payers. The object of this protest is to make the authorities and law enforcement look foolish. There is no need to create more adversaries.

crontab

In Post-9/11 days, pranks and jokes that involve things that can be misconstrued as bombs have no place in society unless you are prepared to take responsibility for your actions, because to do so, there is only yourself to blame when the bombsquad gets called in. Rocketeers should be the most sensitized individuals to this fact and for someone within the community to do this has to make you scratch your head.

This is one of the most sure-fired ways I know for the hobby to lose its 3rd largest provider of high power rocket motors. No one would have thought you would need an explosives manufacturers permit to buy cardboard tubes less than 10" in length from Firefox, but look at where the Purrington's find themselves today because of our current fearful legal system?

With AMW "production facility" now shut down, there is very little to stop them from ever beginning production again. There is no time where the opportunity to cease production permanently is easier than when the central facility is closed and a new one has not begun production yet.

I wish Paul all the goodwill available that this will hurriedly be resolved and put behind him, but I will end by simply saying this wasn't very well thought through.

Dwatkins

The problem is we have a case before a Federal Judge. One of the top motor manufactures leaves a pipe marked in such a way the Bomb squad is called because he has a tif with his landlord. These are the kind of actions I would expect from a 15-25yr old male who has not learned self control. How do you think this would look to the Judge? How do you think this reflects on the hobby as a whole?

crontab

Since that is a rhetorical question that we all know the answer to, the fact that we have to ask it is still disappointing.

Of course the Judge would scratch his head. Outsiders looking in would be quick to say, "See? Those people launching those missiles need to be shut down. They are dangerous enough without the hot heads pulling stunts that result in terror."

Set a timer. The day will come.

brianc

Sorry- facts not in evidence.


IANAL, but live next door to one.

Steve_Shannon

That's correct. None of this has any bearing on the lawsuit. The suit is about a question of how ATF decides something is considered and explosive, not about whether people with access to rocket fuel are dangerous.

Second, this does not involve rocket fuel. It simply involves someone who is known in rocketry circles. It would be hypocritical for us to think that all rocketry vendors and manufacturers should be any more exemplary than we all are. I know I have made mistakes of judgement often in the past and certainly will in the future. While it is true that the news article can slightly damage the way some people perceive rocketry, we can overcome that by making the positive aspects well-known to the public. We can do that by inviting reporters to our launches, volunteering in the schools, and publicizing ourselves through flyers at hobby shops and craft fairs.

To be honest, I was upset when I first read the article. Sure, it would be nice if this story had never been published, but we just all need to do our part to make sure this is not the image that rocketry is stuck with.

jmiller

It's not only the lawsuit, but also the "court of public opinion" that's involved here! (those outside the hobby).

This was a dumb move by Kosden East, ah, er AWM. (I'm showing my age...)

Will the BATFE grant him a LEMP for another location after this stunt? How about the local Fire Dept?

Won't the folks that live around his "new location" put a "waco" label on him from day one?

It's bad press for the hobby, and impacts much more than the lawsuit...

Clark

For those of you who want to wait to past judgement until the facts are in are like sheep being led to the slaughter.

It doesn't matter what the facts are. Bottom line is a bomb squad had to be called in and now it's in the media and in the public eye.

Do you honestly think that the public will wait for the facts to come out, if they even come out?

When O.J. went on trial how many people had already made up their minds of his guilt? Apparently a bunch since 2/3rds of this country was in shock when the verdict came back.

As a manufacturer of rocket motors Paul of all people should know what we are facing as we battle the BATF in court.

This doesn't prove that rocket motors are safe as someone stated in another post here. We know how safe they are. But the public doesn't and this doesn't prove motor safety to them. It does prove to them that there are people out there who shouldn't be handling such stuff and Paul just put himself on that list whether we like it or not.

DumasBro2

Not a big fan of the media, it's not about facts it's about what make a good story. So try this case in the media.
If you're on the TRA list there are a few more facts and possibilities out there, not saying that they are true just that I'm not ready to get out the rope as of yet.

Loki

Everyone, please, please, please, think before you post! I am a business man who spends a significant portion of every single day dealing with explosives regulations and regulators. Strangely, I would much rather have the ATF or the fire marshal tell me I'm violating rule 999:subsection abc: part 7 than to read a post like some I've read. You people, the rocketeers, are supposed to be the good guys! I read rocketry forums like Rocketry Planet because I like rocket chat. I like to read about what people are flying and what gets them excited about rocketry. You can't imagine what a downer it is to have to spend my limited forum time squashing rumors and responding to slanderous posts.

-Jeff Taylor
President
Loki Research, LLC

crontab

No one here is trying this case in the media — it has already been tried there. And the verdict came in when the bomb squad sent in a special agent in an explosion-proof suit to remove a suspicious object.

The TRA list isn't producing ANY answers, in fact, it's encouraging others to let it pass, let it slide, sweep it under the rug, pretend it didn't happen, which is atypical for the TRA and the TRA list. The person at the center of the story is on the list but he isn't saying a peep. His hand puppet is dribbling out bits and pieces, but you could hardly call them "facts." The whole story could be squashed with a single statement by the party involved but perhaps his attorney told him not to say anything. Until I see a post with his name on it saying "That was a really stupid thing to do," I will continue to believe he thought he could get away with such stupid behavior. If that is trying the case in the media, so be it.

bobkrech

The former AMW facility was located on several acres in Pelham, NH in a mixed use business zoned area, and was properly permitted and licensed by the local, state and federal authorities. Furthermore AMW had excellent relationships with both the local police and fire departments, and the state police. There were no homes in the adjacent area until the lot next door was rezoned residential and the AMW site was rezoned for condos last year.

While there was significant animosity between the tennant and the landlord, according to Paul "the facts" as reported in the media are incorrect, and no charges were filed. I believe I know the complete story, but just in case I don't have it exactly right, I'd rather let Paul present his side of the story at some later date.

Bob

Giant Leap

Hi Fellas:

First, let me agree with Jeff at Loki; It is brutally difficult to be a rocketry vendor - - especially in this regulatory environment - - and one careless word against a vendor can cost that vendor dearly. And if we hurt vendors, we hurt the hobby.

But while rocketeers must respect vendors, the reverse is also true; Vendors must in turn respect the hobby and make responsible choices. And here, I have to come down hard on AMW. Based on the media information, it seems that the owner of AMW, Paul Robinson, was engaged in some sort of dispute over the terms of his tenancy. He left a container behind that was marked in a way that was perhaps intended to rattle the landlord's cage. Paul claims it was an innocent joke. I'm not laughing, particularly because it seems cruel and because Paul's claim doesn't fit with the alleged adversarial context between him the landlord.

Perhaps we'll hear more facts from Paul. But based on what I know now, perhaps he put his need for a "gotcha" far ahead of his obligations to the hobby. Frankly, after the bomb squad shows up, the "aw-shucks, no-big-deal" routine doesn't cut it for me. This is indeed a very big deal. A widely publicized shadow has been cast across a collection of very responsible, law abiding, and hard working vendors - - and at a most inopportune time.

Ed
Giant Leap

Just Jerry

Making false or misleading comments about vendors is common practice in this industry. It has been for decades. And not just by anonymous trolls, but also by BOD members of TRA and NAR, and local leaders of those clubs. Any efforts by folks like myself to ask this behavior to be self-moderated or at least be somewhat fact based has consistently been not heeded (or had major blastback). In that sense nothing has changed. In some cases the "air of accusation" has become so thick, real authorities, presuming it is true have gone after real vendors and users. Hence the loss of 70% of motor vendors over the years, and the ATF actions leading to the lawsuit.

If the INDUSTRY were to put 10% as much effort into addressing the root causes of national and state regulation as it does shooting itself in the foot by falsified words and claims, self "over-compliance" such as TRA/AT/Magnum/etc. CHOICE to demand ATF permits for EXEMPT rocket motors for years before ATF itself moved to codify it this year, we would be far better off.

If I could say one thing I could get people to actually listen to, it would be this. Stop accusing anybody of any federal or state violation ever. That is the job of the government. They are perfectly happy NOT to do it too!! Seek provisions that allow activity to be unfettered, and change rules to make it more so, and deal with any "perceived" safety issues with the wildly successful voluntary safety code(s).

Just Jerry

Steve_Shannon

Isn't that a fact. We don't need the ATF as an enemy. We seem to provide that ourselves.

THarrison

Ed,

While you can't control what the random trolls say about your company, you can control the people that are respresenting your company. I don't know if you are aware but your NC/SC rep has quite a volitile history posting on rocketry forums. I would urge you to read www.newtons3rdrocketry.com/forums and see for yourself. Search for Rock_It. His attitude toward other members was like nothing I had ever seen before.

Quite simply, I will not be ordering from Giant Leap as long as he is a respresentative. I know that there are others in the community that feel the same way. It is unfortunate because I have always been very happy with your products and service.

-Todd Harrison

QuickBurst

Well said Jeff.

crontab

Just go to TRF and look at his 500 posts:

http://rocketryforum.com/s...user=Rock_It&showposts=1

He became so mentally unstable there that he went through all 500 posts and because he couldn't delete them, he changed all 500 posts to simply ".". He refused to accept common hobby logic, choosing instead to act like a loose cannon. I wonder how many other customers it's cost?

Dwatkins

This was the point!! I wanted all to think about this and how one person well known in the hobby can damage its perception. From Nerds to bombers in one bad article. We all need to watch our actions exspecially while this is in front of a Judge. Is this material not in evidence? Yes! If this Judge reads this will it alter the way he sees us? Yes! We are all guilty of that one. The news portrays a group as dangerous, we begin to watch how we act around that group or do not associate with at all. We asked the judge to believe we can self regulate and that our knoledge of rocket propellant was more significant then the governments. Then one making these motors pulls a stunt like this. Bad for all of us. SO please remember you are representing this hobby and behave accordingly.

ddmobley

For the record, vendors and manufacturers, when running a business it is often wise to insulate yourself from the potential damage that can be caused by revealing your home address. A post office box would go a long way to preventing people from doing things that could cause you and/or your family grief when you list your home address as a point of contact for your business. A post on the Internet, while containing the power to damage your business, is a small concern compared to what people *could* do with your home address. Think about it.

agrippo

Darrell,

Waiting on this information is even more compelling then finding out who is going to replace Bob Barker on "The Price is Right". Thanks for the diversion!

Bottom line about the whole thing is that if charges aren't filed then the affected party didn't do anything illegal. This is his personal business and in reality is not going to affect the hobby one way or the other although it has given a bunch of moralistic old ladies something to post about.

Get over it.

Andrew Grippo

ddmobley

A post was removed and several were edited. If you see an edit on your post, it was to remove references to the post that no longer exists. Now if the rest of the posters will keep it on topic, we will have accomplished something. I think.

CF-105

The sad fact is, stunts like this provide ammunition to fear-mongers and parties interested in restricting or eliminating the hobby. I'm thinking beyond the current legal battle here. Remember Senator Enzi's attempt for relief? This is the sort of incident plays directly into the hands of those that killed the effort. Politicians are slaves to public opinion - if the public perceives the hobby as dangerous and in need for strict regulation, then government will continue to regulate & restrict. We're a small minority with few resources... and an easy way to gain a few % points in the polls.

Bottom line - think before you act.

ddmobley

Since this article was posted, I have received some very interesting e-mail, divided along two polar lines: in support of or not in support of it. Most of the people who wrote were in the first class, displaying strong support that actions such as those reported had the potential to be injurious to the hobby. There were a few from the latter class, saying it was no big deal but that by me posting the article, that action had the potential to be injurious to the hobby, suggesting that the primary motivation must be sensationalism to drive traffic to Rocketry Planet.

Perhaps its time to share the primary motivation behind Rocketry Planet since some of you may have missed the previous implementation of it when I owned Rocketry Online. My goal is to make a positive contribution to the rocketry hobby by sharing information via the Internet. I chose a portal format to deliver breaking news, other related data of significant value, and to provide a medium in which interested parties can exchange things of value. In the 10 months Rocketry Planet has been established, it has shattered my old traffic records I had at Rocketry Online, when rocketry was considered in its hey dey but the Internet was much younger. I think most anyone will say the end result is better than Rocketry Online was in its infancy.

So the last thing I have a need (or a desire) to do is blacken the hobby's eye just to sensationalize an article and drive traffic to the site. So, one might ask, why would I post an article such as this one if it's not for sensationalism? Glad you asked.

The article in question is about someone who I call a friend. I have known Paul Robinson for years and know him to be a good and decent man. Do you really think I would want to do something that could harm a friend of mine? No way, not for a moment. Believe me when I tell you I was torn about running this article. I literally wrestled with it. Why, then, was I torn?

The Internet, as we all know all too well, in the past 10 years has permeated every fiber of society. It's literally everywhere. In the early days of the Internet there were very few references to hobby rocketry in the traditional media, an information source that *does* try to sensationalize news to build viewer dependency. I liken their actions to buying an alcoholic a drink — once they know you're hooked, they keep 'em coming. As such, in those days, most media articles were mostly based on curiosity. Internet media has progressed much like print media about our hobby did in the 60's, going through the same curiosity stage early on before later evolving into maximum shock value. But print media in the 60's lacked one thing that has led the Internet revolution: the hyperlink.

It should be pointed out that I didn't write this article, just like I didn't write the article on the Bluegrass Rocketry Society and the FAA or the various other articles on the subject of bombs and bomb-making. But someone did, and the articles were related to hobby rocketry. More importantly, someone else read them, and *that* someone had a hyperlink at their fingertips, just waiting to be forwarded.

Picture this scenario: A rocketry club in Tennessee has appeared before their town council to request permission to conduct a monthly launch at the town park. Nothing big, probably not even over FAR101 requirements, explained in detail to the council. The town's attorney speaks up, suggesting that they table the vote until he can check it out, see what the dangers are.

"Come back next month," the council president says.

So the attorney, back at his office, turns to his PC and queues the Oracle of All Things Knowledgeable (i.e. Google), and says, "Tell me about hobby rocketry, hobby rocketry and town councils, hobby rocketry and laws, hobby rocketry and injuries, hobby rocketry and arrests, hobby rocketry and terrorism," you name it, the mind boggles. And the Oracle speaks volumes. Hundreds of thousands of answers. "Take your pick," the Oracle says. And so the attorney does, and he reads. And reads. And reads. For good measure, he forwards the most interesting (i.e. shocking) ones to the council member's e-mail addresses, too. The hyperlink.

The rocketry group appears back in front of the town council the next month and the council president speaks, "We're sorry, but we are denying your request to launch model rockets at the town park based on our research. It's just too risky."

"But sir," the club president says, "the hobby has a 50 year record of safety with no fatalities."

"Perhaps," the council president says, "but we read about that situation up in Kentucky recently."

"You do know about the danger those planes were in, don't you?" the council's attorney says.

At this point, the club is dead in the water *unless* they really did know about it ahead of time and were able to respond from-the-hip in a cogent and intelligent manner, telling the town council exactly what happened, how that club in Kentucky had filed for and were given an FAA waiver in advance, how the airplanes were never in any real danger because of the manner in which an RSO and LCO coordinate a pre-launch visual and audible check to see if any planes were in the area, but most importantly, to demonstrate how the newspapers that wrote the articles were the ones who were sensationalizing the events by painting a bad picture due to the general public's lack of knowledge about the hobby.

Even after the club president explains all of that in detail they may still be dead in the water, but they are guaranteed, absolutely, positively to be turned down if they have no response. And the only way to have a response is to know of the events, know about the various articles and to have a pre-formulated response plan if the subject comes up. Can you keep up with all of the events happening all over the country in every state all by yourself?

Rocketry Planet brings those articles to you in unadulterated fashion as a service so that you can see what is being said about your hobby and pre-formulate a response. On the articles that hit real close to home, a "Leave a comment" link is included so you can discuss your pre-formulated response with other readers, as two heads really are better than one. If the readers choose to use that opportunity to comment for other purposes, I can't be held responsible for that — it is up to the individual to maximize the opportunities they given every day.

Given that line of reasoning, it now becomes apparent why I wrestled with the decision to publish the article on Paul. If I didn't, he would most likely avoid the publicity the event would bring, at least for a short time. It was on the Internet in several places, including his address, so the clock was ticking. But if I did publish it and that allowed one club to salvage a launch site, helped one member to be allowed to store motors in his town, brought one youth into the hobby who became the next Paul Robinson, not because of what happened, but because the person being affected was able to respond in a cogent and intelligent manner, it would be worth it. If it helped that person appear that he was current on nationwide current events affecting his hobby, it would be worth it. If it helped at all in any way imaginable, it is worth it. I hope Paul understands.

In the end, if it also helps from preventing something like that from happening again, wouldn't that be worth it, too? Paul has and probably will take a lot of grief over this, but no one else who has read the article will ever do that. Never again. Do you think any club will ever launch close to an airport again after reading the Bluegrass Rocketry Society article? Not without having every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed three times. Terry Dean has taken a lot of grief also over that situation, but no one will ever do that again. If one similar incident is prevented, isn't that a good thing for the hobby?

I hope you prefer to be knowledgeable based on an unadulterated source of news rather than to have it filtered for you. I am very sure that the people in the authoritative positions know exactly what has transpired, wouldn't you prefer to be on that same level of knowledge? Literacy beats illiteracy every time. Knowledge is a strenth.

Rocketry Planet presents what the media is saying about the hobby and the people in it. It does that to assist you in the pursuit of the hobby and to ensure its longevity. It's up to the individual to make the best use of it. And I am doing it with no sensationalism, just the facts, as I know them. On this position, I won't change, so keep your noses clean. I won't write about you if you don't, but someone else might. And now you know what that means.

CF-105

Posting a link to a news item is hardly "sensationalizing".

One important thing people need to keep in mind: Negative news sells. Think of all the horror stories we see in the news these days: Iraq, Afganistan, the Middle-East and so on. Going by what the media shows us, *nothing* positive ever happens in those places. If you're interviewed as part of a story about the hobby in general, where does it end up? Probably buried in a "Leisure" section somewhere in the paper. By contrast, bad stuff gets plastered all over the front page. During LDRS 24, the newspaper in Lethbridge had a huge, full-colour photo of the two-stage N to N project CATO - front page, center. Sure, it was spectacular. But it sure wasn't the only flight during the event, and there were far more that were successful.

The sad thing is, people will see what is in the news, and accept it as gospel. Heck, they will see it from only one source in the media, and accept it as complete, unbiased fact.

As a hobby, we probably need to become a whole lot more media-savvy, or at least more media-aware.

agrippo

Thanks for the explaination Darrell, your stock went way back up with me.

Andrew Grippo

Steve_Shannon

Whether they know exactly what has transpired or just think they do, we need (as a group) to be aware of what they think. We need to be able to see ourselves through their eyes, so that we can adjust how we act or at the very least how we are perceived.
I have no problem with you printing these kind of stories. This particular story brought out the worst in some, but as long as we work together we can overcome that.

jmiller

In reality, as we are "self regulating", doesn't the the shutdown of AWM's production facility also start the "decert timer" on their motors?

We all know Gary played some games when AT moved from Nevada to UT, but how can we forget the "J350" issue for motors that were produced in Texas during that time...

jmiller

I guess no one's got an answer on the cert issue.....

But, from living thru the Kosdon mess a few years ago, my understanding is that if Paul would make a motor today at another location, it wouldn't be "certified", as the LEMP, etc., aren't valid. If there isn't a "date stamp" on the reload motors, all cert of them could be lost...


That's basically what happened with Frank. There was no way to see if the reloads were made before or after a specific date, and Frank was still making and selling reloads after the "decert clock" started, and no one could tell if they were made when he was legal. (NFPA 1127 requires the "date stamping")

ddmobley

I guess no one wants to add any more fuel to an already blazing fire. I don't know the answer, I guess it depends on who you are, as some motor manufacturers seem to attract more wrath from the hobby orgs than others. But I suppose if the motors were manufactured at the location of another LEMP holder, that would be ok.

Steve_Shannon

I think it is reasonable to think this starts the clock, but hopefully AMW will overcome these troubles and find a new ATF approved site soon. I would think that would reset the clock. If Paul wants to move to Montana I will help him find a site. I've only fired a couple of his 38mm motors but I liked the way they burned.

jmiller

All I can say is "Kosdon".. He kept making motors "after the fact" and there was no way to ID motors made before or after the decert was "on the clock".

End result was that all of Frank's motors were "decerted" by TRA and the clock was set to "expired". NAR couldn't get their act together (IMHO) and you had a case where NAR allowed motors that TRA didn't. Trust me.. It was an interesting time for a joint TRA and NAR club! (TRA insurance wouldn't cover a TRA flyer with a Kosdon load, but a NAR fly