COLORADO SPRING, Colorado USA — Tim Van Milligan introduced a new line of model rocket kits this past week that are unlike anything else you have ever seen.  Apogee Components is now importing a line of model rocket kits from the Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technologies Co., Ltd., based in central China, that are marketed under the the name "Sky®" model rockets.

The Sky Long March 3.

The Sky-brand rocket line consists of seven model rocket kits as well as a starter set that is very similar to the Estes® starter set.  The model line includes several scale Chinese launch vehicles that are not usually seen in the modeling community due to the secrecy that normally surrounds their launch programs.  These include a Long March 3, the Shenzhou and the Long March 2E.

The real Chinese Long March 3 rocket was a three-stage launch vehicle designed for delivery of satellites of 1,500 Kg mass into geosynchronous transfer orbit. The Long March 3 model is probably one of the first ones ever in the United States.  The 1:95th scale model of the rocket features a blow-molded nose cone, plastic fin unit and a pre-decorated body tube, so no is painting required.

The Sky Shenzhou.

The kit features a one-piece nose cone that is built tough and should stand up to many hard landings.  The plastic fin unit features fins that are slid and glued into channels on the molded fin can. The model also features simulated display nozzles glued to the base of the fin can to give your rocket a nice finished look, and they stay on during flight.  The kit flies on standard 18mm engines and retails for $11.99.

The Shenzhou, loosely translates as "Divine Vessel," is the name of the spacecraft that carried China’s first astronauts, sometimes called Taikonauts, into earth orbit. The Shenzhou is a 1:150th scale model of the rocket that launched the Shenzhou spacecraft, features plastic nose cone and fins, and does not require any painting. It also includes a small model of the Shenzhou spacecraft with removable solar panels. If you remove the solar panels, you can put it into the nose cone of the rocket and launch it with the rocket.  The kit retails for $13.25.

The Sky Chang Zheng-2E.

The Chinese Chang Zheng-2E, or "Long March 2E," is a heavy-lift satellite launch vehicle with a lifting capability in the same class as the American Titan or the Russian Proton rockets. The model is a 1:150th scale version of the rocket and is perfect for displaying on your rocket shelf, as it stands 13.38 inches (34 cm) tall.  The kit retails for $12.99.

These kits feature injection molded plastic nose cones with thick walls and no evidence of a seam. High-quality pressure-sensitive decals are included for the nosecone. Clear plastic fins slip on for flight or slip off for display.  The models feature simulated display nozzles to give your rocket a nice finished look that stays on during flight.

The Sky Starter Set.

The Sky Starter Set features a Sky Eagle rocket kit, a 1.38" diameter rocket measuring nearly 18" in length.  It flies on 18mm motors and features a plastic fin can to make sure first-time fliers enjoy success.  The launch pad is very similar to the Estes launch pad, and comes with a three-piece 1/8-inch diameter rod.  The launch controller bears an uncanny resemblance to the Estes Electron Beam® launch controller, although it uses an LED instead of a light-bulb, which is prone to burn-out. The starter set lists for $33.00.

According to the Apogee web site, the quality of the kits is comparable to those made by other manufacturers. The tubes and rings of the Sky rockets are unique in that they are convolutely rolled, as opposed to the typical spiral-wound tubes used in other rocket kits. Convolutely wound means a whole sheet of paper was rolled up to make the tube. It is a little stronger than spiral wound tubes because there are no seams along the length of the tube.

The other advantage of convolute winding is that the patterns of the rocket can be printed right on the models.  The engine mounts are "ever so slightly" larger due to a small difference between the rocket motors flown by Chinese modelers versus the standard 18mm diameter motors flown in the USA, but 18mm diameter motors work fine in these kits — no modifications are needed. All of the SKY model rocket kits have instructions in English.

In related news, Apogee has been plagued recently by an extended period of connectivity issues with their web site.  Those issues have finally been resolved and the web site is back online.

Website: http://www.apogeerockets.com/

SKY® is a registered trademark of Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technologies Co., Ltd. of China.
Estes® and Electron Beam® are registered trademarks of Estes-Cox Corporation in the United States.

07-01-2007 07:44 PM  #1
Paul53b Certified Level One   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 24	Great Post I was hoping you'd do an article on this topic. -Thanks

07-02-2007 09:31 AM  #2
Darian New Member   Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 6	Those D5 engines in the small photo look interesting.

07-02-2007 11:36 AM  #3
MikeyR New Member   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4	Normal activity from our friends in China "launch controller bears an uncanny resemblance to the Estes Electron Beam® launch controller, although it uses an LED instead of a light-bulb, which is prone to burn-out." Maybe made from the same tooling that is used for Estes? The pad looks really familiar, too.

07-02-2007 06:11 PM  #4
Dave Curtis New Member   Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1	Great Rockets These are really great rockets. I have all of them and they are easy to build and really fun to launch. The staff at Apogee really hit the nail on the head with these kits!

07-31-2007 01:33 PM  #5
crontab Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 204	I have thought about this and thought about this, and I just can't get the question out of my mind: I wonder what Estes thinks about a fellow Coloradoan importing an obvious knockoff of their Electron Beam controller? I mean, here is an American citizen importing knockoff Chinese products that 1) rip off the original company that designed and built the original product, 2) exports US dollars to a communist nation and 3) supports the elimination of American jobs. The only American benefitting from this arrangement is Mr. Apogee. Estes loses out, Estes employees lose out, Estes shareholders lose out. For what? Another dollar of profit? I can see importing the Chinese launch vehicles because there are no comparative models like them available anywhere else, but I can't see importing the launchers, not when a good ol' US-made launcher will work. I imagine the only thing stopping Apogee from importing the motors is the explosives laws or we would be looking at Chinese motors as well. Where is the "Built In The USA" pride, Apogee? "God Bless The USA, But Bless My Wallet More?" Is the dollar really that important? Sadly, Apogee will never get any more of my money after this.

07-31-2007 09:10 PM  #6
StuBarrett Certified Level Eleven   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 149	Crontab is a xenophobe Actually, there is probably a family in China that is feeding itself due to this small part of the global economy. I suggest that you read Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat" and get a clue on WTF is happening. You and John Edwards seem to think that is it OK to denigrate poor people as long as they can't vote. Can't seem to understand that evolution DEMANDS this kind of competition. Look up xenophobe in the dictionary, you will see a picture of you and others like you. Stu Quote: I have thought about this and thought about this, and I just can't get the question out of my mind: I wonder what Estes thinks about a fellow Coloradoan importing an obvious knockoff of their Electron Beam controller? I mean, here is an American citizen importing knockoff Chinese products that 1) rip off the original company that designed and built the original product, 2) exports US dollars to a communist nation and 3) supports the elimination of American jobs. The only American benefitting from this arrangement is Mr. Apogee. Estes loses out, Estes employees lose out, Estes shareholders lose out. For what? Another dollar of profit? I can see importing the Chinese launch vehicles because there are no comparative models like them available anywhere else, but I can't see importing the launchers, not when a good ol' US-made launcher will work. I imagine the only thing stopping Apogee from importing the motors is the explosives laws or we would be looking at Chinese motors as well. Where is the "Built In The USA" pride, Apogee? "God Bless The USA, But Bless My Wallet More?" Is the dollar really that important? Sadly, Apogee will never get any more of my money after this.

08-01-2007 02:16 AM  #7
crontab Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 204	Quote: Actually, there is probably a family in China that is feeding itself due to this small part of the global economy. I suggest that you read Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat" and get a clue on WTF is happening. You and John Edwards seem to think that is it OK to denigrate poor people as long as they can't vote. Can't seem to understand that evolution DEMANDS this kind of competition. Look up xenophobe in the dictionary, you will see a picture of you and others like you. I don't GIVE A DAMN about a family China eating. I do care about families in America eating. If you are so concerned about life in 3rd world countries, perhaps you need to adopt that Chinese family. That said, are these personal attacks really necessary? Does it make you feel good to call other people names and act like you are better than everybody else? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were suffering from a severe case of the smartass. Just about every post you make is a smug remark and seldom any meaningful contribution.

08-01-2007 11:48 AM  #8
StuBarrett Certified Level Eleven   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 149	Spoken like a true white supremacist. Vote for John Edwards, and you'll get a free Clan robe!! Darrell, just for the record, it was Crontab that brought up politics on this thread with his xenophobic rantings. What is sad is that he is smug about his racist predilections and his only rejoinder is to call out any criticism of his biases as 'smart ass'. Now back to rockets, and please no racism folks. Stu Quote: I don't GIVE A DAMN about a family China eating.

08-01-2007 03:53 PM  #9
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Spoken like a true white supremacist. Vote for John Edwards, and you'll get a free Clan robe!! Darrell, just for the record, it was Crontab that brought up politics on this thread with his xenophobic rantings. What is sad is that he is smug about his racist predilections and his only rejoinder is to call out any criticism of his biases as 'smart ass'. Now back to rockets, and please no racism folks. Stu, color me blind but I didn't see anything blatantly racist or political in his post. Does that make me a racist politician too? A lot of people believe in buying "Made In USA" products and are entitled to that viewpoint. If every one of those people are racists, then the house is going to be full. However, calling them a racist probably isn't going to win them over to your persuasion. If we expect everyone to behave and act like we want them to with no variation, it would be a really boring world. There is room for all opinions here and users shouldn't have to be beaten into submission by other users who think their views are more suitable. Differing opinions create discourse and discourse creates discussion and discussion creates enlightenment. A person will have much more luck enlightening those with differing opinions with a more tactful approach. It's like the old adage that says one will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

08-01-2007 08:18 PM  #10
StuBarrett Certified Level Eleven   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 149	Quote: It's like the old adage that says one will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. How true. Sorry for the spasm. It is just a pet peeve of mine to see folks buy into the selfish agenda of populist politicians and knock the hard working folks that they have to compete against. History is littered with folks/societies that could not adapt to competition. There is nothing wrong with crontab's "buy USA" bias, the thing that raised my dander was his denigration of someone's basic human right to make money in a fair and transparent manner. His comment "The only *American* benefiting..." illustrated his myopic view of how the world works and I took it as his having a bigoted, self-centered perspective. His admission that he does not give a damn for foreign workers says much to discredit his "Is the dollar really that important?" rhetorical question. Obviously it is to him, otherwise he would have no problem with folks exercising their right to engage in free markets. He wants that dollar where he feels it benefits him the most. Darrell, Just because you can fill up a room with like minded folks does not make it anymore moral even if some populist politicians would like you to believe so. It is his right to exercise his free will to practice commerce as he sees fit. I only hope that he, and others like him do not attempt to use the political process (e.g. John Edwards) to force the rest of us to adhere to their view of how commerce should be done. I ramble, Thanks for throwing a bucket of water on me. Stu

08-01-2007 10:38 PM  #11
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Quote: How true. Sorry for the spasm. It is just a pet peeve of mine to see folks buy into the selfish agenda of populist politicians and knock the hard working folks that they have to compete against. History is littered with folks/societies that could not adapt to competition. There is nothing wrong with crontab's "buy USA" bias, the thing that raised my dander was his denigration of someone's basic human right to make money in a fair and transparent manner. His comment "The only *American* benefiting..." illustrated his myopic view of how the world works and I took it as his having a bigoted, self-centered perspective. His admission that he does not give a damn for foreign workers says much to discredit his "Is the dollar really that important?" rhetorical question. Obviously it is to him, otherwise he would have no problem with folks exercising their right to engage in free markets. He wants that dollar where he feels it benefits him the most. Darrell, Just because you can fill up a room with like minded folks does not make it anymore moral even if some populist politicians would like you to believe so. It is his right to exercise his free will to practice commerce as he sees fit. I only hope that he, and others like him do not attempt to use the political process (e.g. John Edwards) to force the rest of us to adhere to their view of how commerce should be done. I ramble, Thanks for throwing a bucket of water on me. Stu I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, principaly because you so rarely say anything contravercial. Chrontab on the other hand publicly criticizes me while almost lock-step parrotiong my rocketry political statements. Ironical. As for China, they are not at war with us militarily. They are at war with us commercially. They are leveraging currency manipulation to juice their GDP growth so that in about 10 years, they will have more money than us. We have already transferred approximately 30% of our industrial base directly to China. While Hillary Clinton was on the Wal-Mart BOD they enforced a policy of compelling US manufacturers to manufacture in China or lose the largest retail outlet in the USA. There are plenty of stories of collateral damage including a famous pillow manufacturer which made prime time story news shows. Too late. We have exported that. One might consider our own fate from the "inside". Only we can raise ourselves up. Our prospects are not good considering the example of consumer rocketry where the membership opragnizations installed choke points via NFPA-1122/25/27 to prevent anyone but approved members from engaging in the activity above 62.5g (killing lone ranger HPR and the tens of thousands of participants it already had plus the potential growth from there - potential lawsuit contributees all). Now that NFPA restricts it, ATF has too (10-20-07). The only way out is to eliminate the restrictions from the inside. I predict it will not occur (we will be Bundick-ed and Rogers-ed and Kelly-ed and Rosenfield-ed). I further predict China's GDP will exceed ours in a bit more than 10 years. Where will you live then? Just Jerry

08-01-2007 10:58 PM  #12
crontab Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 204	Quote: Where will you live then? Perhaps, if that ever actually happens, there will be room in the alternative universe that you live in...

08-02-2007 01:16 AM  #13
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: There is room for all opinions here and users shouldn't have to be beaten into submission by other users who think their views are more suitable. Funny, I thought the same when someone got banned. I have not seen any Apogee rockets or components but I think it is good that the rocketry businesses outside the mass markets are introducing and trying new things. I can't help but wonder why I'm the only one to look at the back of a BEAM.

08-02-2007 01:53 AM  #14
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Quote: Funny, I thought the same when someone got banned. Banning has been a fact of life ever since Tripoli came into existence. I was "banned" from LDRS-2 by Matt Steele. I was reinstated by popular outcry of the masses and one popular and local vendor coming to my direct and public aid. I was "banned" from TRA itself on the false accusation by Chuck Rogers and Bill Morrow that I had never filed for an FAA clearance for LTR (Lucerne-Fest) launches. Attached to the "Morrow report" used by Rogers-TRA as the basis for my expulsion was a copy of one of the waivers I obtained. This is all old news and has been well hashed out on rmr a decade ago. Bottom line is I am still TRA banned. I am banned from TRF. I am banned from ROL. I was banned for most of the life of RP. I was banned for a time from NAR for "allowing folks to fly non-model rockets" whilst a NAR member. Yep. Unbanned now. None of "my" DOT approved motors that were already TRA approved can be resubmitted for certification under the renewal provisions. Not against the (TRA or NFPA) rules, but against current leadership "rulings". No new motors submitted under DOT 1.3C paperwork will be accepted now (TRA leadership rulings) or for the past 10 years. So let me say this. All that is unfair and unreasonable. But not nearly so unreasonable as preventing over 20,000 EXISTING lone ranger and ATF exempt rocketeers from continuing to participate in civil rocketry, and thus help in the fight against ATF, and unreasonable NAR and TRA rules as promulgated under NFPA rules. This is a shoot yourself in the foot industry. I know. I founded HPR. Just Jerry TRA#00012 http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/CRm.htm

08-02-2007 12:42 PM  #15
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Funny, I thought the same when someone got banned. Ask, and ye shall receive. You make a simple reference in regard to someone and you get a watershed of garbage in return. You don't know the background of the banning, so why bring it up? Jerry was asked repeatedly to live in the present and not live in the past. Jerry insists in living in the past and insists in making public statements that aren't true. I get tired of reading it and everyone else at every other place he has been banned gets tired of reading it. Jerry can not state facts, he states hyperbole. Jerry can not state the truth, he distorts it. In my opinion, Jerry is a dangerous influence on new people getting into the hobby, so why should I voluntarily participate in the damage of these individuals. Jerry did not invent high power rocketry, he participated in a fledgling hobby and benefited from its growth, but he is not the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Father and Son, the Messiah of this hobby, but if you read his posts, you can't help but think that he thinks he is. My biggest complaint is that he hijacks threads and posts for his own propaganda. Look at this thread. A thread about Apogee Components importing a new product. But currently, the discussion is about Jerry. Jerry was wronged, Jerry was hurt, Jerry this, Jerry that. Just read his post. Tripoli is the bane of his and every rocketeer's existence. Matt Steele banned him. TRA banned him. NAR banned him. TRF banned him. ROL banned him. He was banned from Rocketry Planet because he refused to follow the terms of service. Woe is me! Jerry says: "All that is unfair and unreasonable. I know. I founded HPR." It's a sickening and disgusting display of someone who can't move beyond the past, who can't get over things. How can Jerry claim to have founded high power rocketry when his company, U.S. Rockets, never existed according to him. According to Jerry, "U.S. Rockets does not exist 'now [and> has never existed.'" This quote was taken directly from an appeal by Jerry to the Department of Transportation, which fined him for transporting motors and reloads illegally, and is linked below. According to the final findings in the DOT case, their case arose out of a January 2001 shipment by Dynamic Propellent Technologies LLC of three different types of model rocket motors and five different solid propellent reloading kits for model rockets. On the Yellow Freight Lines bill of lading, the shipment was described as “Model Aircraft Parts” with a total weight of 210 pounds. There was no “X” in the “Haz Mat” column or any other indication that the shipment contained hazardous materials. The bill of lading was signed by Mr. Irvine as the “shipper.” The DOT's findings were: On July 25, 2002, the Chief Counsel, Research and Special Programs Administration (RSPA), U.S. Department of Transportation, issued an Order to Dynamic Propellent Technologies, LLC, U.S. Rockets, LLC, and Mr. Jerry Irvine (Respondents), jointly and severally, assessing a penalty in the amount of $57,500 for the following violations of the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR), 49 C.F.R. Parts 171-180: Violation No. 1 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellent, solid, that had not been examined, classed, and approved in accordance with 49 C.F.R. § 173.56 and, therefore, were unapproved explosives and unauthorized for transportation in commerce, in violation of 49 C.F.R. §§ 171.2(a), 173.51(a), 173.54(a), and 173.56. Violation No. 2 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellent, solid, accompanied by a shipping paper that did not indicate that the materials are hazardous and that contained an improper description of the materials, in violation of §§ 171.2(a), 172.200(a), 172.202, and 173.22(a)(1). Violation No. 3 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellant, solid, in a quantity that required placarding, without registering with RSPA as a hazardous materials shipper, in violation of 49 C.F.R. § 107.601(a)(6), 107.608, and 171.2(a). In the Order, which is incorporated herein by reference, RSPA’s Chief Counsel assessed the $57,500 civil penalty originally proposed in the January 30, 2002 Notice of Probable Violation (Notice). In an August 14, 2002 letter, Mr. Jerry Irvine submitted an appeal of the Order on behalf of himself and the other two Respondents. And: There is no basis to dismiss Mr. Irvine from this case. As the manager and virtually the only employee of Dynamic, he is the company. He signed the bill of lading and was responsible for the shipment of rocket motors and solid propellant disguised as “Model Airplane Parts.” It is well settled that both a company and its individual agent or employee who acts for the company may be held responsible for violations that the employee commits. And: U.S. Rockets presently has an internet web site (http://www.usrockets.com) at which customers may place orders for rocket motors and propellants (many of which actually exceed the 36" x 3.3" dimensions in the BOE test report). RSPA understands that these orders are passed to Dynamic which fills and ships these orders to the customer. (The internet address for Dynamic, http://www.v-serv.com, provides a direct connection to the U.S. Rockets web site.) There is no evidence that U.S. Rockets had any actual participation in this shipment. However, the range of rocket motors and propellant available for purchase from the U.S. Rockets’ web site casts doubt on Mr. Irvine’s statement that the shipment in this case was “a single shipment of all remaining ‘excess’ produced materials.” The items available for purchase on the U.S. Rockets web site seem to confirm that Dynamic is continuing to ship rocket motors and propellant without holding an approval for these explosive materials. Source: U.S. DOT Appeal http://www.rocketryplanet....df/DOT-Irvine-appeal.pdf Pretty impressive penalty for a company that doesn't exist. And Jerry continues to distort the truth about this situation. He denies any involvement. And he continues to sell and transport rocket motors without DOT approval: Jerry supplies motors to the United Kingdom, for sale through Congreve Rockets, yet if he doesn't have DOT EX numbers to transport the motors within the United States, how do the motors get to the United Kingdom? A teleporter? And even after all of this, I remove his ban, ask him to stop hijacking threads and leave the political, ANTI-TRA, anti-authority, pro-renegade rhetoric out of his posts, and let him back on the site? Jerry may have responded to your response with his same old typical BS that he got banned for, but if he keeps it up he will be banished once again and I won't feel a moment's regret for doing it. A new generation of rocketeer may thank me for it.

08-02-2007 03:03 PM  #16
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: Jerry may have responded to your response with his same old typical BS that he got banned for, but if he keeps it up he will be banished once again and I won't feel a moment's regret for doing it. A new generation of rocketeer may thank me for it. Sorry, I don't know if it's the adhd or what but I really didn't read any of that. If Jerry responded and it's off topic, then I don't know why you wouldn't delete it. But then I don't know why the other off topic posts and personal attacks would remain.

08-02-2007 03:47 PM  #17
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Sorry, I don't know if it's the adhd or what but I really didn't read any of that. That's your choice, just as choosing to stay uninformed is your choice. You were presented with the information, it's up to you to read it. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. And, if I hold his head under long enough, he'll drown. Quote: If Jerry responded and it's off topic, then I don't know why you wouldn't delete it. But then I don't know why the other off topic posts and personal attacks would remain. Why should I have to act as a hall monitor? We are talking about adults here, not students at a day care. When they are repeatedly told not to run in the halls, eventually you lock the doors. I am not going to stand out there in the halls and write down the names of everyone who breaks the rules, just as I am not going to spend my day deleting irrelevant posts. I ask people to act like adults, beyond that I'll invite them to leave. I won't just keep cleaning up the mess.

08-02-2007 04:38 PM  #18
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: That's your choice, just as choosing to stay uninformed is your choice. That's a rather poor assumption on your part. I stopped reading rmr years ago not because of a poster I could filter, but because of the many responders that when I filtered them all, I found there weren't any messages. Why anyone would continue to make this individual the most popular topic of "rocketry" is beyond me. Quote: Why should I have to act as a hall monitor? You have acted as hall monitor (re: Stu, something about enlightenment) in this thread so I guess I don't understand the statement.

08-02-2007 04:43 PM  #19
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Why anyone would continue to make this individual the most popular topic of "rocketry" is beyond me. Sometimes, they don't have a choice, because this individual "inserts" himself into the discussion and repeatedly hijacks threads to discuss his distaste of Tripoli and authority in general. Quote: You have acted as hall monitor (re: Stu, something about enlightenment) in this thread so I guess I don't understand the statement. I did so because Stu particularly called me into the conversation, but I didn't delete any posts. In the course of running this website over the past year, I have deleted a total of 2 posts that weren't blatant spam. One, in particular, was a shot at Jerry! This isn't TRF, I don't delete posts here for sport.

08-02-2007 05:35 PM  #20
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	The subject of banning came up, not the thread title, but discussed within the thread. I replied to it. The subject of China came up and xenophobia and I replied to that and frankly it was directly on-topic to the original discussion of the first post. I also made a couple of observations after citing examples I was familiar with: "One might consider our own fate from the "inside". Only we can raise ourselves up. Our prospects are not good considering the example of consumer rocketry where the membership oragnizations installed choke points via NFPA-1122/25/27 to prevent anyone but approved members from engaging in the activity above 62.5g (killing lone ranger HPR and the tens of thousands of participants it already had plus the potential growth from there - potential lawsuit contributees all). Now that NFPA restricts it, ATF has too (10-20-07). The only way out is to eliminate the restrictions from the inside. I predict it will not occur." and "But not nearly so unreasonable as preventing over 20,000 EXISTING lone ranger and ATF exempt rocketeers from continuing to participate in civil rocketry, and thus help in the fight against ATF, and unreasonable NAR and TRA rules as promulgated under NFPA rules. This is a shoot yourself in the foot industry." I note well your reply was to post attacks not related to a reply to the point I made. As for it being about me, that was also not the case. I cited examples that applied to me but plenty of manufacturers have been banned by TRA, plenty of posters have been banned by TRF, plenty of people have been banned or removed from NAR. I am in a minority actually. I simply say this industry has problems. The evidence is unescapable. National participation is about 5000 people. That's way down. More people than that visit a single Wal-Mart in one day. Regulation is on the upswing despite no identifiable misuse, safety concerns or known injuries. Much of that regulation is promulgated by industry participants themselves through the Sport Rocketry Caucus of the NFPA committee promulgating NFPA-1122/25/27, and policies the clubs themselves implement on motor certifications and consumer certifications and safety code rules. Note well the emphasis on big rockets, big projects, and goods that absolutely DO require explosives permits. CONSUMER rocketry, that is to say general access, is the path to growth. Expanding the definition of CONSUMER rocketry at least to where it was a year ago or 7 years ago would drasticly widen access to HPR. That is not about me or a person. That is about policy and choices, well within the scope of authority of the current "leaderships". Just Jerry

08-02-2007 05:49 PM  #21
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: Sometimes, they don't have a choice, because this individual "inserts" himself into the discussion and repeatedly hijacks threads to discuss his distaste of Tripoli and authority in general. I would further that a thread highjacking involves more than a single poster. But I'll further it no more. I find when you've reached 3 lines in a reply, ask yourself what the heck am I saying, then delete the reply. Say, when I'm not logged in, why is it the 'go to last message' seems to go to random places in a thread? ,... and "Made In China" is the phrase embossed on the backside of the 5 year old Estes BEAM controller. Prize winners will be notified shortly,..

08-02-2007 06:26 PM  #22
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: That is not about me or a person. That is about policy and choices, well within the scope of authority of the current "leaderships". All that, and not a single finger-pointing manuveur at the Great Satan, TRA. I'm almost proud of you. But that's the expectation I have of every poster, so no cigar. Quote: Say, when I'm not logged in, why is it the 'go to last message' seems to go to random places in a thread? I don't know. Perhaps you need to clean your cache and see if that helps. Quote: ... and "Made In China" is the phrase embossed on the backside of the 5 year old Estes BEAM controller. So, the molds for the Electron Beam launch controller were copied, stolen, sold, hijacked, diverted, absconded, parlayed, whatever, within the country of origin to make launch controllers for Sky. Does that downgrade it from an international criminal conspiracy to just an ordinary domestic Chinese crime? Interesting that being opposed to criminal activity such as this is considered xenophobic. (Note: for all I know, Estes imported the Electron Beam controller from Sky to begin with. I don't know. But if it was illegally acquired, then what? Xenophobic?)

08-02-2007 07:15 PM  #23
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: (Note: for all I know, Estes imported the Electron Beam controller from Sky to begin with. I don't know. But if it was illegally acquired, then what? Xenaphobic?) Don't buy Estes products because they support a communist nation,... political?

08-02-2007 07:33 PM  #24
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Don't buy Estes products because they support a communist nation,... political? Who said anything about doing business with Estes ? I never said that. The discussion was about Sky rockets. I simply said I do not know if the accusation of Sky illegally acquiring the molds to the Electron Beam launch controller was accurate or not, for all I knew, Estes may have contracted with them to produce it initially. But went on to ask, if the molds for the Sky knockoff were not legally acquired, is it xenophobic to not want to do business with Sky? Why do you continue to answer questions with more questions? Seemingly ridiculous ones at that. No one said anything about buying Estes products or whether or not the practice was political. You seem to beating a dead dog here without actually saying what it is that keeps you responding. What is the real problem? Just say it.

08-02-2007 08:02 PM  #25
Rocket Flier Certified Level Three   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 264	Quote: Who said anything about doing business with Estes ? I never said that. The discussion was about Sky rockets. I simply said I do not know if the accusation of Sky illegally acquiring the molds to the Electron Beam launch controller was accurate or not, for all I knew, Estes may have contracted with them to produce it initially. But went on to ask, if the molds for the Sky knockoff were not legally acquired, is it xenophobic to not want to do business with Sky? Why do you continue to answer questions with more questions? Seemingly ridiculous ones at that. No one said anything about buying Estes products or whether or not the practice was political. You seem to beating a dead dog here without actually saying what it is that keeps you responding. What is the real problem? Just say it. Rant starts don't do business with Apogee because (#2) they import products from China which is giving money to a communist nation. Someone calls that person a xenophobic. You respond there is nothing blatantly racist or political in his post,.. I point out the back of Estes products say made in china. Bunch of stuff I didn't read then I suggest not to buy Estes because it supports a communist nation as a political statement. That takes us back to the first rant. Is saying not to buy from a country because of their government not a politial statement? I do notice the controller's safety pin is simply a pin. My BEAMs have the self removing pin, which is great because you don't forget and leave it in the controller (armed), but sucks because kids can't push that down and launch the rocket 'all by themselves'.

08-02-2007 09:02 PM  #26
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Is saying not to buy from a country because of their government not a politial statement? No, in my opinion, it is not a political statement. No more so than suggesting that America needs to become less dependent on Middle Eastern oil because it could potentially subsidize terroristic nations. America, as a nation, by and large doesn't support communism or terrorism, nor human rights violators either for that matter. It's an accepted mentality that is not looked at as being from a political stance. There may be politics involved with the discussion of communism, but there is no politics in the world-wide view that communism is not an acceptable way of life. My definition of politics as it pertains to Rocketry Planet is the discussions that involve liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, the Obamas and Clintons. The only relevance those discussions have on this forum is the individual politician's views on hobby rocketry, legislation they may propose or support and what we can do to eliminate the threat.

08-03-2007 01:33 PM  #27
crontab Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 204	Quote: The DOT's findings were: On July 25, 2002, the Chief Counsel, Research and Special Programs Administration (RSPA), U.S. Department of Transportation, issued an Order to Dynamic Propellent Technologies, LLC, U.S. Rockets, LLC, and Mr. Jerry Irvine (Respondents), jointly and severally, assessing a penalty in the amount of $57,500 for the following violations of the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR), 49 C.F.R. Parts 171-180: Violation No. 1 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellent, solid, that had not been examined, classed, and approved in accordance with 49 C.F.R. § 173.56 and, therefore, were unapproved explosives and unauthorized for transportation in commerce, in violation of 49 C.F.R. §§ 171.2(a), 173.51(a), 173.54(a), and 173.56. Violation No. 2 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellent, solid, accompanied by a shipping paper that did not indicate that the materials are hazardous and that contained an improper description of the materials, in violation of §§ 171.2(a), 172.200(a), 172.202, and 173.22(a)(1). Violation No. 3 - Knowingly offering for transportation in commerce hazardous materials, rocket motors and propellant, solid, in a quantity that required placarding, without registering with RSPA as a hazardous materials shipper, in violation of 49 C.F.R. § 107.601(a)(6), 107.608, and 171.2(a). In the Order, which is incorporated herein by reference, RSPA’s Chief Counsel assessed the $57,500 civil penalty originally proposed in the January 30, 2002 Notice of Probable Violation (Notice). In an August 14, 2002 letter, Mr. Jerry Irvine submitted an appeal of the Order on behalf of himself and the other two Respondents. And: There is no basis to dismiss Mr. Irvine from this case. As the manager and virtually the only employee of Dynamic, he is the company. He signed the bill of lading and was responsible for the shipment of rocket motors and solid propellant disguised as “Model Airplane Parts.” It is well settled that both a company and its individual agent or employee who acts for the company may be held responsible for violations that the employee commits. And: U.S. Rockets presently has an internet web site (http://www.usrockets.com) at which customers may place orders for rocket motors and propellants (many of which actually exceed the 36" x 3.3" dimensions in the BOE test report). RSPA understands that these orders are passed to Dynamic which fills and ships these orders to the customer. (The internet address for Dynamic, http://www.v-serv.com, provides a direct connection to the U.S. Rockets web site.) There is no evidence that U.S. Rockets had any actual participation in this shipment. However, the range of rocket motors and propellant available for purchase from the U.S. Rockets’ web site casts doubt on Mr. Irvine’s statement that the shipment in this case was “a single shipment of all remaining ‘excess’ produced materials.” The items available for purchase on the U.S. Rockets web site seem to confirm that Dynamic is continuing to ship rocket motors and propellant without holding an approval for these explosive materials. Source: U.S. DOT Appeal http://www.rocketryplanet....df/DOT-Irvine-appeal.pdf It is amazing to me that Jerry has the gall to even show his face on this forum, but what is even more amazing is that no one else has said anything about the quoted material. What do you have to say for yourself, Mr. Irvine?