ONEHUNGA, Auckland, NZ — Hobby rocketry enthusiasts in the United States are spoiled compared to what enthusiasts in other parts of the world face, especially when it comes to getting rocket motors.  U.S. participants should consider themselves lucky compared to people in New Zealand.

A half scale Patriot headed to the pads in New Zealand.

The rocketry hobby in New Zealand is enjoyed by a group of very enthusiastic craftsmen, as much so as the hobbyists in America.  But the conditions under which they get to enjoy the sport there is next to impossible to contemplate.  First and foremost, with the majority of manufacturers and suppliers being based in the United States, the cost to import products to New Zealand becomes very restrictive.  The New Zealand dollar is currently is only valued about 3/4 of a U.S. dollar.  Coupled with hazardous shipping and freight, the cost of the hobby can get down-right ridiculous.

To add to their plight, New Zealand's primary source for motors and igniters, Aerospace Education, elected to discontinue providing mid and high power rocket motors and igniters to the fliers there.  As such, the New Zealand Rocketry Association (NZRA) recently held a meeting to discuss the future of their hobby and to try and find alternative means to get motors and igniters to their members. 

It was decided that to ensure the continuing supply of motors to their club members and for use in other commercial and educational projects, the NZRA would attempt to source motors and reloads of E impluse and higher themselves, by placing one order annually for motors.  Imagine the difficulty in determining what motors you would need for an entire year in advance, only to be followed closely by extreme sticker shock. Based on the results of their meeting earlier this month, the NZRA has set a deadline for club members to submit their orders, with the cut-off date being October 15th. 

Because the overseas order has to be prepaid, motors and reloads need to be paid for either in full or at the very least, by the payment of a 50% deposit at the time the order is placed, with the balance payable on receipt of the motors in New Zealand.  Given the hazardous materials charges, overseas freight, import fees, etc., the end result to the flier is a cost that runs approximately 200% of the motors or reloads in U.S. dollars, but members who wanted to import their own motors would pay even more. 

The rocketry website, New Zealand Rocketry, quotes 13mm, 18mm and 24mm black powder motors ranging in price from $18 to $40 for a 3 or 4 pack. 29mm, 38mm, 54mm and 98mm diameter ammonium perchlorate motors are quoted from between $180 and $1800 for the motor casing and $54 to $2560 per flight for the propellant.  Fliers in the United States should count their blessings.

10-12-2007 08:45 PM  #1
Scoop1261 New Member   Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 4	And it's not just those poor Kiwi's....us Aussie enthusiasts are also in similar predicaments. With currently only one supplier in Australia, it is not unusual to see prices for APCP motors to be between 200% - 400% more expensive than US prices. On top of that we don't get the luxury of choice of manufacturers either...it's AT or nothing!

10-12-2007 08:55 PM  #2
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Whats keeping them from going the EX route? No chemical suppliers either? Seems like a nice market as well for someone interested in a potentially lucrative sideline biz servicing both Aus/NZ.

10-13-2007 09:11 PM  #3
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Yes, AT or nothing...I know the feeling... Yes, Mr. Denverdoc, no EX suppliers. Well, there are, and a small number of members do go the EX route. Unfortunately these 'suppliers' have chosen to service only a small number of people who they deem capable and this leaves a number of us who do have the time, money, patience and common sense, out in the cold. It is an unfortunate situation for those of us downunder, and I sympathise with the Auzzies as well. However, judging by the situation in the US, it may not be long before they experience similar problems. Ethan

10-14-2007 12:50 AM  #4
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Thats too bad about the suppliers restricting materials like that. Maybe you guys can come up with some sortt of certification system. Take a class, pass a test, demo a motor made in the class and you are good to go. It sort of works that way here informally with at least one of the EX suppliers--these are two part propellant kits.

10-15-2007 02:30 AM  #5
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Yes, I wish that would be possible...have asked about it once or twice before...got met with a blank stare... None of the older guys that have access to this sorta stuff are willing to give us that oppertunity...they don't have the time or motivation. Ethan

10-15-2007 03:05 AM  #6
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	One word then, candy is dandy. I'm not into sugar motors but there are good recipes on the net and IIRC the only thing that might be restricted is KNO3. Sure the ISP is less, but if you got the motor hardware, minimal investment to get started. http://www.aeroconsystems....ar_motor/sugar_motor.htm Lest you think this may be too restrictive in terms of performance: http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/engine1.html That gentleman along with his team is planning on a space shot powered by sugar. You gotta love it.

10-15-2007 02:43 PM  #7
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Amen to sugar... Burl Finkelstein told me that the M load he used in his V2 in Orangeburg last month cost about $70. As far as I know that included the cost of some propellant sample testing that he did. I suspect that sugar motors down under are not going to be a lot more expensive than they are here. The liners are simple phenolic tubes. Burl made his own motor - but any machine shop should be able to do that. Pick a thicker T-6 tube and make sure commonly available liners and casting tubes are available and you're in business. Mind you - I say this not having made my first sugar motor. I've been talking with Burl and Jack Orr about this and will move into this soon I think.

10-16-2007 03:44 AM  #8
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Yes, we have access to KNO3 and sucrose, dextrose, sorbitol.... I started with sugar motors about 18 months ago...Non-toxic and cheap as dirt to make.... I'm kinda an altitude junkie so low isp, short burn motors arent really my style...but I'm trying track down some Erythritol which might help the burn time... One of the club members recently flew a 4" 10,000 ns Sorbitol motor...simm'd at 14 K Ft. Drifted ages away and wasn't recovered till a week later..the MC was fried so no data and it zippered 3mm fiberglass right down to the FWD Bulkhead.... But now I'm rambling! Yes, so we have access to something...Just gotta make do with what ya got I guess... Ethan

10-16-2007 06:50 AM  #9
Steve_Shannon Growing more clueless...   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 2287	Ethan, I'm sorry for the poor availability of commercial motors in New Zealand. How many high power fliers are there? Would it be enough to support a motor manufacturer? What are the rules like there as far as setting up to be a manufacturer? Is AP available? What kind of restrictions are there as far as getting AP? With the recent slide of the US dollar in exchange rates, does this help?

10-16-2007 08:23 AM  #10
Juerg Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 310	Well, I guess the situation should be about the same as anywhere else outside the US. There isn't really a big difference between shipping motors from the US to Europe and shipping motors to New Zealand. The major additional cost is shipment, what normally causes some 30-40% uplift. On top of that there is customs and tax, again some 20% I currently don't see why in NZL prices should be 400% of the US prices however, unless there is huge customs and tax. Juerg

10-16-2007 09:20 AM  #11
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	What about Congreve? http://www.rocketmotors.co.uk/motors.htm Would these guys be cheaper to buy and fly in your neck of the woods?

10-16-2007 01:28 PM  #12
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Would these guys be cheaper to buy and fly in your neck of the woods? I am still waiting to see those guy's CE certificate. My guess is never in a million years... But they should be a lot cheaper since the cost of legally shipping shipping them can be immediately deducted from the product's cost.

10-16-2007 04:49 PM  #13
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Quote: I am still waiting to see those guy's CE certificate. My guess is never in a million years... But they should be a lot cheaper since the cost of legally shipping shipping them can be immediately deducted from the product's cost. Now now... just because it may not be legal here isn't relevant. They somehow get by with it. Perhaps they moved the manufacturing overseas by now? The fact is the sell these in the UK. They may be cheaper for these guys to buy and fly.

10-16-2007 05:51 PM  #14
K2S New Member   Joined: May 2007 Posts: 3	Why not go Nitrous?? I'm not aware of many nitrous flyers in NZ, besides my self. Yes the initial outlay is alot more but the on going cost is alot cheaper, I have the R.A.T.T works L600/M900 motor and fired it the other month, I sat down and worked out that for one firing it cost me approx $80 (L600), I realsise you still need a preheater grain, you just need to buy one 54mm reload and thats you sorted there for at least 1/2 doz firings if not more (depends what size you buy) or make your own KNO3 preheater grain. Nos bottle was second hand and I wired up all my own GSE, pretty easy. But yeah thats one option to go for high power, if you can get a group of you then you only need one set of GSE gear and just share the cost of the Nos, be cheap as. Nos was abit difficult to obtain at first but I went through BOC gas told them what I was doing, they had no problem with it but they only sold it in "G" size cylinders, so I went through the local performance car shop and they were cool with it.... But yeah Nos is not always an option and it does suck with only being able to do one order for solid propellant a year.. Iain -------------------------- My two cents!

10-16-2007 07:30 PM  #15
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: Now now... just because it may not be legal here isn't relevant. They somehow get by with it. The fact that they are not legal here is very relevant. If they can not be transported over the highways of the United States, there is no way for them to get to the shipping depot for export. Yes, somehow they get by with it. It's called "they haven't gotten caught yet."

10-17-2007 02:01 AM  #16
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Shipping prices from the UK have been significantly higher from the quotes I've received... They guys at the club think that with our new system, the prices will be about 200% of the US...When our guy used to stock them it was another 60 to 100 % depending on reload... The possibility of having a manufacturer was talked about at the meeting...One of the members is a leading NZ pyrotechnics manufacturer and is one of the 'suppliers' i mentioned in my first post. (http://www.pyroworks.co.nz/) He did not want to deal with the liability issues. I have spent a significant amount of time investigating the possibility of going all hybrid....I got in touch with an ex-member who used to fly the early Hyperteks...He had the same problem..BOC Gas only sold N20 in G size tanks which he stated would probably need a hiab to move around...I am still very young, my dad does the supervising thing but is not very knowledgeablw when it comes to rockets...Im not sure how well a 14 Year old walking into a Speed shop asking for NOS would go down. I believe there are significant laws regarding the import of High Power Motors into NZ...Our dealer stated that AeroTech was the only one who was willing to go through the hassles of shipping such a small # of motors all the way down here...Apparently AMW etc. just gave him blank looks. Thanks for your help so far guys, Ethan

10-17-2007 09:10 AM  #17
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Ethan, My have times have changed since I was 14.... Right or wrong, it does make the attitude of the EX suppliers and others much more understandable. This came up last year at a motor making demo our club held. When I mentioned I might be bringing along a flyer who was 15 at the time, there was some resistance, and finally the compromise made that if his dad signed a consent, he could attend. But no one there would have been comfortable with the idea of his building/flying motors without adult supervision. At the time he was even inlegible for TRA membership, the one body that condones and endorses EX work here in the states. Again this is no reflection on your ability to do so or not.

10-17-2007 02:14 PM  #18
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: I believe there are significant laws regarding the import of High Power Motors into NZ...Our dealer stated that AeroTech was the only one who was willing to go through the hassles of shipping such a small # of motors all the way down here...Apparently AMW etc. just gave him blank looks. Ethan, perhaps things have changed enough that you could recruit some new asistance with motors in NZ. Cesaroni has made great efforts to get their products in the UK in recent years, perhaps he could expend similar effort for NZ. Of course, the size of the market dictates how much any company could spend to enter a country. But perhaps you could contact Cesaroni and ask them what the barriers are to getting their products into NZ.

10-17-2007 03:14 PM  #19
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	What Club/Body governs flights there? Is this http://www.rockets.co.nz/nzra/nzra.htm the rocket organization that sanctions your launches? If so I didn't see anything to prohibit research or anything that indicated insurance was provided. In truth little information was there. Is there a certification program for high power? What age (if applies) do you have to be to certify? What if any restrictions are made on EX/Research motors flown there?

10-18-2007 01:48 AM  #20
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Haha yeah I guess palming off EX supplies to a guy just out of nappies doesn't exactly give you peace of mind... Nope, no certification system. Any old bum off the street can come in and fly an N motor Not exactly sure what you meant by inurance...but we are covered by $2 million dollars in case of an accident...so long as you launch under their waiver/NOTAM. No restrictions on EX motors as far as I'm aware. You must be 18 to puchase motors. My apologies for the site. www.rockets.co.nz is our dealer's page. The new NZRA website is www.nzrocketry.org.nz but I don't suggest you visit, it is not up do date as yet. As for a market...Haha! I don't know if any mfg. would be willing to go through the legal crap to send his product to about 100 people, 150 max! Ethan

10-18-2007 02:16 AM  #21
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Quote: Haha yeah I guess palming off EX supplies to a guy just out of nappies doesn't exactly give you peace of mind... Nope, no certification system. Any old bum off the street can come in and fly an N motor Not exactly sure what you meant by inurance...but we are covered by $2 million dollars in case of an accident...so long as you launch under their waiver/NOTAM. No restrictions on EX motors as far as I'm aware. You must be 18 to puchase motors. My apologies for the site. www.rockets.co.nz is our dealer's page. The new NZRA website is www.nzrocketry.org.nz but I don't suggest you visit, it is not up do date as yet. As for a market...Haha! I don't know if any mfg. would be willing to go through the legal crap to send his product to about 100 people, 150 max! Ethan hey, giving access to some of the old timers back in nappies doesn't give me peace of mind either

10-18-2007 11:21 AM  #22
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Quote: As for a market...Haha! I don't know if any mfg. would be willing to go through the legal crap to send his product to about 100 people, 150 max! Ethan, I spoke with Cesaroni and this was his reply: It's up to a dealer there to express interest. I'm not aware of any barriers on our end. A dealer would just have to obtain the local approvals as far as I know. Same deal as EU. So get a dealer to get in touch with him and they will ship CTI motors to NZ!

10-18-2007 11:36 AM  #23
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Now there is customer service I can never see TRF providing. Very cool, DD.

10-18-2007 04:17 PM  #24
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	I never considered it a customer service, just one rocketeer helping another!

10-19-2007 01:16 AM  #25
Ethan Altitude Junkie   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 26	Wow thanks! That sure would be awesome...Make a change from AT. Problem is I don't think many people would be interested...the older members have collected quite a few cases over the years and don't think having to buy a new set would put a smile on their dial.... I am going to contact our dealer and see what it is that gives us the 200% Mark-up....I'd be interested to see what that is. I did get a nice email from another member offering to supply AT more cheaply....I'm not sure how it would be possible to get any cheaper seeing as we are no longer adding profit margins.... Ethan

09-23-2008 03:48 AM  #26
Chrisn Certified Level Four   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 44	Re: New Zealand hobbyists facing their own motor issues Ethan, I think the bigger the weight of the shipment is, the lower % of paperwork cost. (thread bump)

09-23-2008 04:07 AM  #27
Chrisn Certified Level Four   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 44	Re: New Zealand hobbyists facing their own motor issues OK I have an idea... If we were to change to a different manufacturer from AeroTech... We could always sell the cases to the americans