Chuck_Rudy

Exactly where are all the hybrid motors in the que? Something still stinks in tmt land.

Chuck

ddmobley

Tom Sanders said the other day in the Yahoo Hybrids discussion that TMT has had a number of Contrail motors since March and not a one has been tested yet. Here is his post:

TMT Has had a number of Contrail Motors since March with out a single test being run. The Motors are larger than the capacity of the NAR Hybrid Stand.

To my knowledge TMT still does not have any ability to test Hybrid motors using their equipment.

I have a few dozen motors I would like to send out for cert. But sending them out doesn't make sense until there is progress in the testing of current motors.

A few dozen MORE? I wonder what the problem is with TMT? Six months to test motors can seem like an eternity when this man's business is on the line. You would think that with the regulatory situation being what it is that Tripoli would be doing everything in their power to make hybrids available quicker rather than slower.

Chuck_Rudy

My guess is they've written into NFPA that no one but they can test the motors.....so the obvious of having them tested by independant, hardworking, unbiased college programs is out of the question and makes far too much sense. (add to that the TMT chair took off about 11 months and handed the responsibilty to...........no one. So the motor list expanded for almost a year)

I brought this up several months ago and I seem to recall the "O no, we have to do it according to.........." reply. If you want the responsibility of testing you better get off you butt and make it possible, or write it into the rules that it can be done independantly.

Think of this, at an aerospace college program part of the syllibus says "all students must physically involve themselves in the motor testing program as the motors are distributed for certification by TRA, NAR, CAR."

I betcha a bunch of kids would gladly give up saturday morning to pop off a few.

Chuck

ddmobley

Well, when you think about it, the best way TRA and NAR can assure their futures are guaranteed is to annoint themselves as the motor testing agencies. Remember, NFPA was an attempt to show the world (particularly Washington) that they could self-police themselves and thereby needed no regulatory supervision.

What they have done is akin to the AMA registering all of the doctors and then shoving the FDA out of the way and saying, "Look! We don't need you to approve the medications that we will administer. We'll do it ourselves to prove to you that we can police ourselves."

There is no doubt an independent agency could do a better and more efficient job, but the cost would be passed on to the consumer. One has to wonder how much of that cost would actually show up on the bottom line. I mean, how much revenue does a manufacturer lose when their motors sit for 4, 5, 6 months or longer, waiting for for testing? Testing, done sooner instead of later, could mean products getting to market quicker, and manufacturers experiencing a stronger bottom line. The resulting cost increase of independent testing may be just a blip on the radar screen compared to the real cost of continual testing delay.

Chuck_Rudy

If it is done as part of a college/university course with a facility already having the physical means necessary to do the testing, my guess is the cost is NADDA! A reperesentative would approach the appropriate institution(S) and explain, we can have the mfg pay X, we need 3 thrust curves averaged as one minimum, we will have the mfg supply 6 complete motor reloads and X complete casings. Can you do it? The profs would be thrilled to have various items to test and oversee that the tests would come out within 1% of each other. But of course, with the college/university being so precise the 20% variance from the mfg curves would not float.

Chuck

agrippo

With the move of TMT to Texas I have to believe that as they get ramped up all these delays will be going away. The gentlemen helping Paul are not the type of folks that will screw people over and I'm sure they intend to do what it takes to get that part of TRA running smooth.

Andrew

Chuck_Rudy

I wonder if they have any pics of the new hybrid stand for testing the largest and smallest hybrids at a temperature controlled 65F.......haven't heard a peep......I won't hold my breath, though, as the track record is abysmal.

And where are my manners? Congrtulations to the Head Gorilla!

Chuck

roadkill

Yea,

Congrats to Jim, his loads are awesome !
That Black Lightning formula is like AMW Skidmark
on steroids, it just plain simply Rocks !



...and thats the small one, J 365 BL !

denverdoc

Susan,

Nice job--thats a lot to get right (electronics/dd/fiberglass).

edk

That is to me the most frusterating part of hybrids - I've seen many experienced fliers go down this path only to have really bad flights. Myself, I'd like to see more support for hybrids but they seem to be very touchy. I've yet to be at a launch where it's 65F. It's usually 85F and in the fall it's 30-50F. Once the hybrid guys nail down the pressure (over/under) issues - they will have no problems getting many motors in peoples hands.

heada

If its hot, use a sun shade and a container of icewater. If it's cold, use an electric blanket. (ideas stolen from SkyRipper's site I think)

Since temprature and pressure effect the motor performance, why aren't hybrids tested in a range of temps? I would think that supply bottle temps from 50°F to 85°F would give good results and give a good idea what users would see at the field. I know that current NFPA regs don't allow for this, but I don't think they specify a temp for testing at all, do they?

-Aaron

Chuck_Rudy

They are supposed to adjust for 68F (it may be 65F, but I believe it was 68F) on all testing solids, hybrids, tribrids, liquids and sea level.........I've requested the formula they use for adjustment and was given......silence.......however they don't even announce the temperature they DO their tests. If all were done at 68F we'd have a baseline and some order, without it why bother doing a cert test? They have told us nothing. It's been a mess from the start.

If they finally find someone willing to rent them a climate controlled facility (remember they have written it in they are to be self regulating, no one else can test) they will have a backlog of older certs to obtain to correct their wrongs from all these years.

In short, what a disaster.

Chuck

PS----putting your bottle in a sonotube, which is insulated with foam inside another sonotube with insulated base and a cap can keep your nitrous within 5 degrees all day in hot or cold weather......it's the cheap, hassle-free, put you bottle to the pad once a day method of not worrying about ice, water blankets and going freezing cold. This should probably be moved to a new thread somewhere so as not to interfere too much with the cert announcement.

jderimig

NFPA1125 says that hybrids shall be tested at manufacturers recommended max fuel weight. The correction to 68F only applies to solid motors IMO.

It is up to the manufacturer to determine the maximum fuel weight is and that will determine what temp the n2o needs to be at.

heada

Does NFPA1125 say anything about oxidizer weight/pressure/temp? The fuel weight isn't an issue nearly as much as the oxidizer in this case.

I forget where I read it (might have been SkyRipper's site, I don't recall) but I remember reading that the ideal flight / test setup for most N20 GSE was 700PSIA and 75°F If all hybrids were tested at the same level (700PSIA and 75°F seems reasonable to me, but I'm not a hybrid designer or tester) we'd at least have a level playing surface but testing in 90° Arizona and in 50° Canada doesn't seem all that fair to the motor manufacturers or us as end-users.

-Aaron

contrailrockets

So instead of testing them in some condition, (Hot, Cold etc.) they just don't test them at all?

Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

heada

I'm not saying don't test them. I'm saying all hybrids should be tested in the same conditions. As posted above, solids are tested and then normalized for 68°F at sealevel. If all motors (solid or hybrid) were tested to the exact same environmentals, we (as both manufacturers like yourself and end-users like myself) would have a level playing field to not only compare motors but to also know exactly what to expect from the motors. What I don't think is fair to anyone if a Hyper-Tek motor tested and certified in 50°F at 650PSI and a Contrail tested and certified in 90°F and 900PSI. If you were to take the certified motors and swap locations, I don't think (I have no basis in fact for this) they'd match the +/- 20% of designation. If I can control temperature and pressure at the GSE, I know that my motor will match the certified configuration.

-Aaron

ddmobley

I think Tom's comments are directly related to his current difficulty getting hybrids through TMT, since it was Tom's post I referred to saying TMT had had some Contrail hybrids since April and still had not tested them. The story I am hearing is that TMT tried to test in Havasu just prior to LDRS, or at LDRS, and that both times Contrail declined. A face-to-face meeting at LDRS resulted in an agreement to test at the Contrail site in September, which was cancelled by Contrail again. Like I said, this is just the story I am getting. If Sanders has more information than this, he can add it himself. But the story that TMT is not testing hybrids is not entirely accurate, since it only represents one side of the story, at least when compared to two different sides I am being presented with.

jsdemar

NFPA 1125 says:

8.2.8 Hybrid high power rocket motor flight cylinders shall
be filled to their maximum allowable net weight for each test
firing.

I'm assuming "maximum allowable" is as defined by the manufacturer.

The rest of the high power rocket motor test specs apply to hybrids. "... conducted at or corrected to sea level and 20°C ± 5°C (68°F ± 9°F)". Sea level is a nozzle coefficient correction. Temperature correction is based on prior test data (for solids). If the fill is done by weight, I'm not sure if a temperature correction is needed for hybrids. The grain burnrate would probably change based on it's preflight temperature.

jderimig

You are correct, I meant to say net weight (including oxidizer), that then defines the oxidizer temp.

heada

So NFPA forces either testing at 68°F or for it to be corrected to 68°F. Has this been done for hybrids? If so, how? Could you vent off some N2O from the supply tank until it drops to 68°F?

DumasBro2

It was all good when SRS was waiting +1 year for their certs will you were cranking out certs like a sausage factory. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

contrailrockets

At least they went out and fired the SRS Motors a few times during that year.

The SRS Motors had some issues during testing which delayed the final certification. So testing was done well before that 1 year you claim.

Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

ddmobley

So Tom, no comments about Contrail turning down offers for TMT to test in Havasu City or at LDRS, or no comments about TMT coming to Havasu in September and you postponing, again? I guess that means the complaints you have about TMT dragging their feet on hybrid certifications weren't really true, huh?

DumasBro2

The issue you speak of was resolved almost immediately, still took forever.

contrailrockets

Darrel,
Regarding testing at LDRS...
Paul offered to test at LDRS under a few conditions...
It was for Thursday morning and Sunday morning prior to flying ONLY!
It would allow us approximatly a 4 hour window for testing.
We would need to trailer both our testing trailer and our product trailer to Jean Dry Lake from Lake Havasu.
We would need to purchase or rent a generator to power the computer Paul uses.
We would need to provide a flat screen monitor for Paul to use during testing.
We would need to provide some form of a calibration weight for use by TMT.

We would not be able to get enough done in the time alloted to make it cost effective or time effective. As a result we declined to test at the Lake Bed during LDRS.

Now regarding testing of motors in Havasu...
Paul offered to test the week prior to Balls in Lake Havasu. We would be stuck paying for Plane Ticket, Lodging, Vehicle Rental, etc. This would be on top of the regular costs associated such as product to test, testing fees etc. Which are not in question.
The Weekend didn't work out as both myself (Tom R. Sanders) as well as Tom B. Sanders were busy the weekend prior to Balls with other engadgements which could not be broken or changed.
Busy or not, the question arrises of why are we saddled with the expense to transport, and lodge TMT at our location when no other manufacture has to do this? AT Just sends motors to TMT and they get spit out in no time. Really any AP manufacturer just sends in their stuff and it gets done. The Hybrid guys like myself get to send stuff in and wonder if it will ever be done?

If they don't have the ability to test motors come up with another solution!!!
Require Manufactures to provide data for temporary certs until they can get their act together.
Allow other groups to test motors and act as a part of TMT... (Colleges, Private Flyers, Or even a Business in rocketry which isn't yet started but could be)
Get a test stand to test motors like what was promised months ago.


Do we need to send in 20 or 30 motors to create a backlog big enough they get to testing motors?

At the rate they currently are testing hybrids 30 motors would be 6 to 8 years of backlogs!

contrailrockets

But in that time they still "Gave it a shot"... Actually multiple shots according to Todd Moore. They tested them and the numbers were off, they tested them and had some case burn throughs due to bad grains, they tested them in canada and popped the motors apart, and they they tested them in Texas.

In 7 months they havn't so much as tested a single hybrid motor in Texas.

Yet AP Motors "Jump the line" to get certed.

Why not test all motors in the order which they are received rather than some other order. This would help eliminate any backlogs froms months ago.
Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

ddmobley

Tom, those are all valid points. If TMT wants to be in the motor certification business, then they need to spend whatever it takes to do the job that is ahead of them. I, too, wouldn't want to pay for transportation and other ammenities in order to try to assist TMT in doing what they should be equipped to do on their own. If TMT can not test hybrid motors in Texas as part of their normal capacity currently, they should not try to hand the bill to you if you are willing to host TMT using your equipment to do their work.

The reason I asked you to comment on the subject is to get the situation out from behind closed doors and into the public's face where the issue can be resolved. I think it's terrible that there are hybrid manfacturers out there who have regulation-free products that could sustain the hobby while we waiting on a decision from Judge Walton and that the very organization that is supposed to be our ally and reprentative is dragging their feet on getting these products to market. That is abominable.

I understand that there are limitations with TMT's current equipment and testing sites available that do not allow them to test hybrids at this time, but if they are not capable of testing them, how is that your problem? It isn't, and TMT should then test them whereever necessary, even at your location, at no cost to you, because it is TMT that is at fault in this, not you.

DumasBro2

The grain issued was resolved almost immediately, and it was only one of the motors. One motor had problems in Canada, user error. Don't make it sound like a motor problem. Maybe you should try CAR. Now just imagine if HT, WC, SRS (pick your mfg.) was cranking out certs one after another while yours weren't, there is a real problem. Maybe there is another reason yours haven't been tested???? Seems the cert process is a lot like life, it's not fair. It's just your turn this time.

contrailrockets

CAR Does not test US Made motors. Only Canadian Motors. They made an attempt at testing SRS motors by request of TMT and it didn't go to well. After that I don't know that I would want my motors tested by CAR. And yes, user error was the cause in Canada...

It isn't a matter of the cert process being fair or not, it is just a matter of following their own rules. If they can not or will not test motors then say so, then come up with another option rather than letting it drag on to become this.

Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

Todd Moore

Woah child.....

You're doing it again.....

Here are the facts....AGAIN. I'm honestly getting tired of you mischaracterizing this over and over again.

The FIRST time I sent 54 motors to TMT in April of 2006, the sat for about a month before the fist testing session, where a grain problem was discovered. I actually discovered the same problem a couple of days earlier, but for whatever reason, my email to Paul asking him to wait for replacement product didn't get received by him until after he was back from testing where the failures occurred....

I had replacement reloads to TMT the following weekend... These were tested several months later in temperatures that were outrageous (on the verge of supercritical), and the motors performed much below the tests I had done in Michigan under controlled temperature situations, as anyone who knows hybrids would understand.

Paul offered to send stuff to Canada to have CAR test. Since my preheaters couldn't make the trip, I instructed the CAR team on how to make the preheater grains from AT stock....

CAR fired one motor which worked perfectly in a bath of almost 90 degree water. Why? I don't know to this day, but I do know that explained why their test results were 20% lower than mine. CAR agreed to test the motor again. On the second test some weeks later, the motor came apart on the test stand due to a IMPROPERLY PREPPED PREHEATER GRAIN. When I talked to the CAR testing agent, he immediately understood his mistake, and left me and SRS with zero culpability in the accident. Since TMT only sent them one motor, I packaged up another motor, and some reloads, and sent them to Canada myself to continue testing.

When the package arrived at CAR, I got an email from the testing agent telling me that he would be leaving for several weeks, and would get back to me at a later date when he could resume testing....

I emailed a few times without reply, and several months later asked TMT to find out what was going on. I then got an email from CAR telling me that they would NOT be testing anymore motors.

Paul agreed to try to test before he moved from Arizona to Texas if I could get him more reloads before the following weekend. I scheduled injection molding press time and other manufacturing time to ensure that my package reached him in time - but he failed to remind me that he had moved since the last package I sent him, so the reloads didn't make it to him in time.....

Several months later, TMT tested the remaining SRS motors in Texas, and I was awarded the certifications.

It was a FULL YEAR wait, with most of the time being wholly unrelated to any issues inherent with my product. Please STOP INSINUATING THAT THIS WAS THE CASE.

Now, let me tell you that I feel for you. I've been in the same boat that you are now.. It sucks, but you'll just have to do what I did and wait it out, or jump to NAR, who has some hybrid capacity now....

Best of luck to you.

denverdoc

I should know better than to stick my nose where it has no business, but in trying to figure out the heck whats going on here it seems that certing motors is not on the top of TRA priorities. Thats a shame. Its the lifeblood of the hobby. Now anyone with half a lick of sense should not bet the house on making a go in the HPR biz, still I can appreciate the frustration that comes with seemingly unreasonable delays or proximity making a difference. I would suggest therefore that testing be done on a quarterly basis, at pre arranged sites, even LDRS and Ball where inquiring minds could even observe or volunteer. It levels the playing field and makes available to the curious and/or ambitious the process to accurately characterize a motor.

For the motor makers, you got the goods or you sit out til next round.

contrailrockets

Todd,
I don't think I was insinuating that any of the delays were your fault. I was very quickly explaining that there were some tests attempted before the final certifications. From what I have read in the past, which was posted on forums by you, and again here was that there were some "issues" or "delays" to your certs which "aided in" the delay to certification. It was not just a submit them and then a year later they finally get tested.

The situation we are in right now is that in March we submitted motors to TMT. They were shipped via Priority Mail to Pauls Address. This was immediatly after your 54mm motors were certified so we figured TMT was back into the testing of motors now that they were in Texas. With the certs of your motors finally coming through we figured it wouldn't be to big of a deal to get some more done in a timely manner...

Where your motors were tested, progress made, and eventually retested with a final certification given we can't so much as get a response from TMT if they will be testing motors anymore?! I have resent my last e-mail which was sent 1 week ago yesterday to Ken Good, Pat G. and Paul Holmes to hopefully get some response as to the situation.

If they will not be testing the motors I would just like to know that so I can let people know, and move on to the next step.

And as for NAR I have had good communication with Bill from S&T but they have limited capacity of up to 2 pounds and 250 or 500 pounds of max thrust. This limits us to 38's and small 54's and limits us to mostly lower thrust motors. Even a number of our 38's peak to over 500 pounds of thrust and would not be "S&T Ready"...

Sorry about any confustion, I didn't mean to give you the feeling I was attacking your product, only using your experince as another example of the lack of testing ability that TMT has for Hybrids.
Tom

ddmobley

Doc, you are right. Motor manufacturers are the very lifeblood of the hobby. Without motors, we are all static modelers. Therefore you would think that the primary purpose of the hobby organizations would be to insure that motor testing gets a lot of priority and a plenty of funding.

I went back and checked 2007's report card for TMT. Here is what I found:

Motors approved: 33
Manufacturers represented: 5

AeroTech: 12 motors - J825R in March; M1850, M1550 changes in March; I115W, I229T, I215R, I599N in July; I117FJ, J250FJ, J401FJ, K513FJ, K828FJ in August

Gorilla Motors: 9 motors - J365BL, J465GT, J450BL in March; K533BL, J167WC, K222WC, K327WC in June; K555GT, K763GT in October

Loki Research: 5 motors - H100LS, I316LS, J712LB, H90LR, I210LR in July

Roadrunner: 1 motor - F45 in June

Skyripper: 6 motors - K347B, J337B, J348B, K257G, J261G, J263G in February

From the looks of things, hybrids have been shelved since the Skyripper certs and other than a lone Roadrunner F motor, the balance have been restricted access, explosive permit-required motors. In a hobby that is being choked to death by regulatory pressure, why are we spending all of our energy approving restricted access motors and not working on getting more regulation-free alternatives onto the shelves? That simply doesn't make sense to me. It seems that the people who are directing TMT's mission are betting the entire farm on us winning the lawsuit, when we should be stacking the deck in our favor no matter which way the lawsuit turns out. Make the decision to get hybrid-capable or get out of the way and let people who can do that take over.