Todd Moore

Real rockets for real rocket scientists.......


I'm not worthy™

JRogers

My bad, that was uncalled for.

Todd Moore

Nope. I did.

I only play with toy rockets.

Rich Pitzeruse

I play with toy rockets....so this isn't for me either.

Maagic

They have a section on their site about HOW to order, but I can't for the life of me find any prices or info about any of their rockets.

heada

"If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

It really bugged me as well. No pictures of it, no pricing...just that you can order it. Fat chance of me getting one.

-Aaron

Rich Pitzeruse

If that bugs you, then you better not search for his posts on RMR. He has no use for us hobbyists.

ddmobley

Thus sayeth the article:

"Information on these two kits is only available by email, as there is no info on the company web site."

fox_racing_guy

Maybe Pontiac should have tried that same idea with the Aztec.
"We got this cool new vehicle available but sorry no pics, just give us the cash up front"
Can you imagine the outcome?

Fini

About six months ago I begged him to make more Raven's. I guess I got my wish. Now I just have to figure out how to finance this baby.

If you haven't seen his rockets in-person before, they are art.

I'm not worthy either, but come hell or high water I'm getting one.

markkoelsch

I think that thing about cost being beyond most hobbyists is somewhat overblown and out of context. The only place on his website that states this is under the custom section. The exact quote is:
"These services are expensive. As a professional design studio, our rates are far beyond the reach of the average hobbyist. We state this up front so as to weed out the serious customers from the merely curious ones. If you want a quote from us on a serious project, we would be happy to provide one. Depending on the scope of the project, there may be a charge for this quotation. Please do not contact us for 'ballpark' quotes, if you are not sure what you want, or if you 'just want to find out what a model rocket part made in carbon fiber would cost' - our time as well as yours is valuable. It is also customary and proper to submit a response to our quotation once you receive it, so we can plan our schedule."

This seems pretty reasonable for custom work. As for his kits, they are somewhat pricey compared to other kits. Conversely, until Performance rocketry came along there was not anyone else making carbon fiber kits.

Mark Koelsch

ddmobley

Anything that killed that god-awful Aztek would have been worth it.

ddmobley

Is Performance Rocketry making any difference? From all I have heard about Curtis' poor customer service and flat out refusal to ship product after getting paid pretty much eliminates him a CF kit source.

denverdoc

I'm not sure how many were ever in one--it was a butt ugly vehicle, but no Edsel. It really had some very well thought out features, but likely just too unusual for an industry that crawls forward mm by mm.

As to CF kits, maybe GLR has something in the works. I know there is considerable effort to get something to market here in the near future. My guess it will use the dynawind tubing, and hopefully some interesting fin material.

H_rocket

Hell, that's easy to fix

Order it through Ken Allen or Liberty Launch Systems.

Sad thing is if Curtis could get out his own way, there are I suspect a fair number of people who would buy. I have two of his kits and they are beautiful rockets. Liberty Launch is working on getting me a 5.5" Nike Apache.

ddmobley

I would be all over some of Curtis' scale stuff, but above 4" kits, the prices get ridiculous in a hurry. I know he doesn't sell as much of the larger stuff and is still trying to recoup his costs and time involvement in making the molds, but those prices are just too high. $659 for the Astrobee D? Of which $249 is the fin can? Sheesh.

Maagic

I emailed them for more info and here is what they said...

"The original Raven was created in 1997 as the first carbon fiber kit brought to market. Lots of people had tried, but we were the first. The kit featured filament wound high modulus carbon airframe, sized to accomodate any 38mm. motor on the market. Fins were our own autoclaved carbon fiber, as were all internal bulkheads. The motor tube was lined with a ceramic insulation that kept built up motor and nozzle heat from degrading the fin attachments, which used our proprietary surface mount techniques. These techniques have been used on all of our kits and projects, eventually reaching over 168,000 feet, and mach 7 on our professional research projects. Motor retention was by Aeropack 38mm retainer, and a Rocketman R24D chute was included with kevlar cord and nomex blast shield. The electronics bay and chute bay were held together with aerospace blind nuts and flush screws. The nose cone was solid cast urethane in a Von Karmann profile. 1/4" carbon launch lugs on urethane standoffs were included. Special 500 degree capable epoxy was included in the kit for all structural attachment.
The original Raven was available in motor-only (about 56" long) and dual deployment (about 72" long) versions. The rocket was the first minimum diameter kit to reliably fly the J350 motor, and the original prototype logged 75+ flights, over 40 with that motor. The original Raven came in at about 2.3 lbs. in dual deployment form, and topped out at about 11,800 feet with the J350. If I remember correctly, the original Raven sold for 250.00 in dual deployment form, and we sold about 50 of them.

The next step in the Raven evolution was the Raven EX, A lightened version that integrated filament wound carbon fiber couplers, higher temperature resin system in the carbon airframe, and a more simple approach in general. The engineered fit of the couplers allowed the e-bay and chute bay to be held together with simple kapton tape, much lower drag than the screws and lighter weight. The Aeropack motor retainer was ditched to lower frontal area, the motor is simply tape retained at the aft end (works great, lighter weight, no parts to fail, etc). The nose cone was hollow cast from a special high strength urethane, and recovery items remained the same. Kevlar pulp was added to the high temp epoxy kits. Rail guides were included. Later Raven EX's simply came with a streamer, the rocket is more than tough enough to take most any landing, and with a chute it's sometimes almost impossible to follow at the higher altitudes.The ceramic insulation was retained in the motor area, and the main airframe motor bulkhead was moved forward to accomodate the mightiest of the Kosdon 38mm motors, the J1500. With this motor, the rocket attained mach 2.4 repeatedly. With a special slow burn propellant in that casing, we achieved 17,000'+ with a Raven EX prototype. The dual deployment version sold for 350.00, and since I stopped production I have seen Raven EX kits change hands for 2-3 times that amount. We sold about 200 of them.

The new Raven3 can be considered the ultimate, state of the art evolution of the 38mm carbon rocket concept. The new airframe is even lighter, the carbon couplers, fins (new shape), and bulkheads have been retained. The nose cone is a new conical profile as used in our SHOCK and research airframes, and is hollow cast in a new urethane (possibly aluminized, I am still in testing on the material). Kevlar recovery cordage, Rail guides (although I recommend using a tower launch for maximum performance), new Raven3 graphics, and a brand new aerospace quality adhesive that surpasses the previous ones as to ease of use and strength. Chute will be left out this time, as so many people have their own, and it is strongly dependent on launch site as to what you use. The rocket will fly the J1500 again, but will take much more.....Frank Kosdon has made a 38mm casing that hold two more propellant sections.
I'm only going to make about 20 of these, and I expect them to sell fast. I'll be assembling the kits in December, and shipping frist come, first serve on January 1. Cost is 350.00, same as the last run. A 150.00 non refundable deposit will secure a production spot. It is non-refundable because I got stuck with about 10K in airframes on the last SHOCK run, people backed out, and it almost ruined me. That will not happen again.

The BlackBird is 29mm minimum diameter, and available in motor ejection only (about 42" long, although it could be modified for dual deploy on a custom basis). The rocket will handle the 23.5" long Kosdon 6 grain 1.12" motor, the largest 29mm. motor out there. Price is 225.00, non refundable deposit 100.00.

Bottom line is: My kits are truly engineered, this is not a product thrown together by an out-of-work plumber in his basement. In addition to my marine design activities, I manufacture some very special small components for military and air transport companies, and I use these capabilities to make the finest amateur rockets the world has ever seen."

markkoelsch

Hi Darrell,

I am not sure, but I had heard that Curtis was doing a bit better these days. I could be misinformed though. I know he is slow to answer emails, but I do not know about delivery. If he is still being delinquent on this then the people who owe him product should write him a letter threatening legal action, and have it delivered certified mail. If that does not stir him to action then whatever would happen would be 100% his fault.

Mark

Steve_Shannon

Andy Horton had pretty good results this fall, although there was a time when he was concerned, but once he got through to Curtis it all went well (as I understand it). I think he wrote a little about it in his blog on Our Planet. He built a beautiful rocket named Euphoria and launched it to 16,096 on a K at our site here in Montana.

landru

To any and all future owners of a Raven^3

Let me be the first to challenge the "finest amateur rocket the world has ever seen" to a top speed drag race.

My terms:
*Any Loki/AMW or EX 38mm reload for those type of cases (which can then be placed into a custom casing if desired)
*Identical recording electronics.
*Fastest rocket by accel data is winner.
*MUST stay within the waiver.
*Preferably at MDRA or LDRS.
*Winner retains bragging rights.

Put your money where your mouth is and put your 350$ carbon stick head to head with a rocket built and designed by two poor Penn State students in our "professional design studio" (dorms). I dare ya.

~Andrew Diehl

Steve_Shannon

I have nothing to challenge you with but this sounds suspiciously like that car show where people drag race for pink slips.

Johnnie

Don't hold out on us...what's in the bag?

Sounds like a good ole fashioned braggin right's competition, wish I could be there.

Todd Moore

I deduce a completely different 'bottom line' from this statement.

DumasBro2

as do I

denverdoc

Andrew,
I want to be in on this. I think the price is absurd as well. What about standard Loki 38mm hardware as this is what I have? No custom titantium stuff--sort of defeats the purpose of flying fast on the cheap. Argonia OK? In fact why don't we talk to the LDRS sponsors and see if we can't get the event made official--sick of bowling balls.

If we really wanted to hotrod, maybe the Binder 16 grain 38 specials.

Fini

I'd be down for that drag race if we end up at the same launch site sometime.

BTW as unworthy as I am I just got confirmation from Dave that I'll be receiving lucky number 7!

noise

You probably have to sign an NDA to buy one of these things since they are "the finest amateur rockets the world has ever seen".

landru

denverdoc,

I wasn't thinking of titanium hardware. I make my own cases out of the same 6061 aluminum stock but use a different nozzle/bulkhead retention method and somewhat different bulkheads. I wish I could afford titanium cases though

~Andrew Diehl

denverdoc

well if its just regular 6061 Al thats fine--I just think the loads need to be the same. Nozzles then can be custom and are encouraged, along with the rest.

Since John Demar brought it up, I been dreaming about Ti casings. Wish I could afford one as well.

JRogers

I guess all us "out of work plumbers" don't know what were doing when it comes to building.

ddmobley

I'd be willing to bet the Kloudbusters would be all over this contest for LDRS. I'll contact one of the guys and see what they say.

JRogers

To heck with the rocket, I'm more interested in this motor.

DAllen

Exactly...I looked at that web site and it looked like one big snot-fest to me. These guys seem like they have their noses so high up in the air I wonder how they can look down long enough to assemble their kits. I mean, they say "out of work plumbers" like being a plumber is a bad thing. As if, there is no possible way someone like that could even possibly have a clue what they are doing. Like somehow if you can't afford the "proper" materials for a build then you are somehow a substandard rocketeer. Whatta snotty little website.

Look, I do not make much money. I cannot afford to be killing $500 per month or more on this hobby like some people do. You can rest assured of this, if someday I can afford kits like that I won't be buying it from them.

-DAllen

Fini

Personally it would seem some of you are taking that statement personally. I don't think it was meant to be so. He's just making sure prospective interests know that this kit is being built by someone with a great deal of skill in this industry, not to say that plumbers don't have mad skills when it comes to plumbing.

Todd Moore

I've heard him say enough stuff over the years that I know exactly what he meant by that comment.

plano_doug

The results couldn't have been any worse It was so ugly, I took to calling it the Ass Tic. Its sister, the Buick Rendezvous, is only slightly less ugly. I still think GM is a great car maker, but sometimes they have spectacular catos, figuratively speaking.

Doug

plano_doug

I agree it's reasonable for those offering professional services to not want to get bogged down in make-work. But the truly professional will be a lot more articulate in how they convey their message. Comments like the one above, using terms like "average hobbyist" and "weed out", as well as "out of work plumber", tend to make negative impressions on any customer reading them, serious ones included.

After seeing this, the image of Wile E Coyote, wearing a "Genius at Work" hat, comes to mind

Doug

fox_racing_guy

Now that was funny!
OK After pouring over the entire ShadowAero website I still don't know the guys background so can someone "enlighten" me?

Todd Moore

I think he's an unemployed plumber.

DAllen