Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

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2007 Archived News by Planet News

Tuesday, December 04, 2007

WORLD WIDE WEB — Burl Finkelstein, a hobby rocketry enthusiast from Shenandoah, Georgia has been working with representatives of the ATF in Washington, DC in an attempt to define and identify alternative working arrangements for rocketry clubs to allow non-licensed members to fly high power rockets.

Finkelstein developed an outline of how a club could posture itself to take the burden off the member. That became a working document between himself and the ATF representatives in Washington, forming the foundation for clubs nationally to benefit from the information, if they chose to do so. This document has been reviewed by ATF in Washington, and they did not find any errors in the final version. This information is hoped to eventually result in an official notice from ATF that would be sent to all of their enforcement agents nationally.

The document reads:

1)	Can a rocket club obtain a LEUP (Low Explosives Users Permit) to permit club members to fly non-exempt motors at club launches?
	Yes, but only when in compliance with certain conditions as outlined below:
		A)	The club is formed as a “legal person” in its state of residence. To obtain a LEUP, the law requires that the permit holder be a person as defined under 18 U.S.C. 841(a). A corporation, (not for profit or for profit), association, partnership, firm, society and joint stock company are acceptable entities.
			i.	To incorporate, a club must file with the state’s Secretary of State and pay a fee. Generally, a yearly renewal fee is required to keep the corporation in force. You may wish to consult a lawyer in your state for details.
			ii.	An unincorporated Association is a group of people who join for a common defined purpose. Often, filing with the state is optional, not mandatory. Associations do not usually have to pay a yearly fee to the state. You must check the laws of your state.
		B)	The club articles of incorporation, by laws or club charter must specifically define who has possession and control of the rocket motors and what members can do to purchase and use the motors. Members who are not licensed may not receive and possess the motors even if they order and pay for them. Only the club or its responsible persons can have physical possession of the motors.
			i.	An example of a club charter:
				1.	The _____Rocket Club, (Club), is an Association of similarly interested people joining for the purpose of building and flying model sport rockets. The club intends to obtain a Federal Low Explosives Users Permit (LEUP) to facilitate the members’ use of high power rocket motors. Members of the Club are authorized persons for the Club and may order motors from vendors for delivery to the Club magazine. Motors ordered by non-licensed members shall only be delivered to the club magazine, or to a responsible person listed on the Club’s LEUP. Motors may be flown (used), by non-licensed Club members at organized Club launches only under the supervision and control of the responsible persons of the club, provided that no member wishing to use a motor is a prohibited person. The Club, through its responsible persons, shall keep a current inventory of all motors and regulated materials purchased and used, and shall return all unused materials to the magazine before leaving the launch site.
					a.	Prohibited persons are defined in 18 U.S.C. § 842(i)
					b.	If over time, the clubs responsible persons change, the permit must be updated accordingly. 27 CFR § 555.57
		C)	The club must have suitable storage for the motors in an approved magazine. The magazine (generally a type 4), if compliant, will be approved as part of the permitting process, see 27CFR § 555.203, or generally Subpart K of section 555.
		D)	The Club’s permit application must name responsible persons for the Club who will manage the magazine transactions and supervise the handling of the motors and non exempt materials. Records are required per 27 CFR § 555.125. Responsible persons can be club officers or any other suitable club members. Responsible persons are required to submit to a background check that is no different than individuals applying for a LEUP. (See LEUP application form at, http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f540013.pdf).
			i.	Note: ATF does not impose civil penalties for violations of the explosives law. Criminal penalties can be imposed for intentional and knowing violations of Federal explosives law. The law also provides an opportunity for compliance if a violation is found, under 27 CFR § 555.71.
		E)	The Club will only distribute motors at Club launches so that the Club’s responsible persons supervise use. All motors removed from the club magazine must be accounted for, either as used or as returned to the magazine. No motors will leave the launch site unless in the club magazine or if transferred to a LEUP holder. Prohibited distributions are defined in 27 CFR § 555.106.
		F)	Members will be authorized by the club to purchase (order and pay for) motors from motor vendors. The vendors must have proof of, or knowledge that the club member is authorized to purchase. A certified letter from the club (licensee/permittee) should be sent to the vendor listing the authorized persons, along with address, date and place of birth. This helps the club keep control of who is ordering for delivery to its magazine.
2)	Is it permissible to store igniters or electric matches in the same magazine as APCP rocket motors, reload kits, and small amounts of black powder?
		A)	Yes, there is no current regulation prohibiting the storage of igniters, propellants, or other low explosives in the same magazine. It is strongly recommended that leads of all igniters (electric matches) are shunted and that igniters and matches are packaged to protect from friction or damage.

On the subject of magazines, the document discussion indicates a change at ATF regarding separate magazines, one for igniters and another for motors and reload kits. At one point, ATF sought to increase safety by separating electric matches and igniters from other explosive materials. When it was pointed out that there was a very insignificant risk that an igniter or electric match could spontaneously ignite an ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) motor or reload kit, this safety measure was discontinued.

As such, it is permissible to store igniters or electric matches in the same magazine as APCP rocket motors, reload kits, and small amounts of black powder. There is no current regulation prohibiting the storage of igniters, propellants, or other low explosives in the same magazine, but it is strongly recommended that the leads of all igniters and/or electric matches be shunted and that igniters and electric matches are packaged to protect them from friction or other damage.

Attachments: PDF version of club licensing proposal (13Kb Adobe PDF)

Reader comments:

#1 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Isn't this the same basic direction Tim Lehr was trying to go with the ATF? I thought his focus was on the premise that the club had to be incorporated, but I am old and could have misread his documents. It seems now, on the basis of this material, club incorporation is not necessary.

The document shown with the article is.........?

Quote:

That became a working document between himself and the ATF representatives in Washington, forming the foundation for clubs nationally to benefit from the information, if they chose to do so. This document has been reviewed by ATF in Washington, and they did not find any errors in the final version. This information is hoped to eventually result in an official notice from ATF that would be sent to all of their enforcement agents nationally.

I guess its something.........

tbrogan on 12-04-2007 08:00 PM

#2 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Thanks for the post Darryl. The thing that caught my eye was:

Quote:

F) Members will be authorized by the club to purchase (order and pay for) motors from motor vendors. The vendors must have proof of, or knowledge that the club member is authorized to purchase. A certified letter from the club (licensee/permittee) to the vendor listing the authorized persons, along with address, date and place of birth, is required by 27 CFR � 555.103(b)(3)(ii).

So would this mean that a similar letter from an individual LEUP holder should allow unlicensed buddies to buy regulated motors? I'm not sure why a corporation would be any more reliable than an individual in this regard. I'd assume the shipping address would be that of the LEUP holder and the LEUP holder would have to keep control of the motor.

rstaff3 on 12-04-2007 08:14 PM

#3 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

I guess it's a start but one must remember that it's only for 50lbs. of propellant.
Get a large club and it might be difficult to provide for all the members.

It's an alternative in case we lose in court. Might be another year before we see
a ruling. No matter if we have all our ducks in a row, we still can end up on the short end of the stick. I laud Burl for making the effort. Wonder what the Tripoli hierarchy
will comment.

ksaves2 on 12-04-2007 08:37 PM

#4 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Tom, this is a similar direction to what Tim was working on, but Burl took it the extra mile and will end up getting the hobby more in the end. For starters, the accurate point that an incorporated club is no longer need, an association works just fine. Couple that with the item about separate magazines no longer being needed will really help a lot of folks.

Dick, your observations are correct that it doesn't have to be a club performing these roles. If you as a licensed individual want to take the role, you can do so as long as you make sure you are not dealing with prohibited persons. As long as the person is under your supervision and not prohibited, you are good to go. Some vendors already do this.

Kurt, the 50 pound limit only applies to indoor storage variances. If your club has outdoor storage approved, you can go 500 pounds easily.

People, this is an alternative that works RIGHT NOW, not in a year, not if we lose the lawsuit, this works today. Use these scenarios to grow the hobby, not sit around and watch it whither waiting on some judge to make up his mind.

ddmobley on 12-05-2007 12:43 AM

#5 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Quote:

Dick, your observations are correct that it doesn't have to be a club performing these roles. If you as a licensed individual want to take the role, you can do so as long as you make sure you are not dealing with prohibited persons. As long as the person is under your supervision and not prohibited, you are good to go. Some vendors already do this.

You might not even have to supervise that person if they are listed on your LEUP as a "Responsible Person". By listing a person as such their background is checked and they are cleared by the ATF. It is like having multiple people share the duties and responsibilities of single LEUP, being able to order and supervise others. The magazine would remain with the actual licensee, but a "responsible person" has nearly as much authority as the LEUP licensee. As an LEUP licensee you probably would be liable for actions performed by someone you listed as a "responsible person" though, so choose wisely.

Steve_Shannon on 12-05-2007 02:48 AM

#6 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Darryl - thanks for the affirmation of what I was thinking.
Steve - your extended comments make a lot of sense.

It would be nice if the BATFE would make one statement of how this should work and distribute it to all field offices. I hear of a lot of people flying off other people's LEUPS, but I also know of two cases where this hasn't worked out in the BATFE's eyes. I have to admit that the devil is probably in the details and that I don't know all the specifics in either case. The club route hopefully will be better documented and I know of one local club who is actively moving towards club storage.

rstaff3 on 12-05-2007 01:48 PM

#7 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Quote:

Tom, this is a similar direction to what Tim was working on, but Burl took it the extra mile and will end up getting the hobby more in the end.

Thank you Burl!!

Quote:

People, this is an alternative that works RIGHT NOW, not in a year, not if we lose the lawsuit, this works today. Use these scenarios to grow the hobby, not sit around and watch it whither waiting on some judge to make up his mind.

Darrell -

Are you saying this is something we are able to run with now? If so, this is exactly what our club has been waiting for! The incorporation hurdle was a high one for a small club like ours and now that it is gone we will definitely move forward with this. Time to get the officers of CATO together and start the wheels moving! This could be one of the better winter rocketry projects yet! When you start talking to new people about federal permits, fees, background checks, storage magazines, you can see their eyes rolling and they have that "what am I getting myself into look?"

Working out some logistics and, crap, finding someone responsible in our club could be a problem

Just kidding, time to start the ball rolling and the club growing again. Of course this news has to come about two weeks after we lost our high power field! Should be a motivating factor to find another one, eh?!

Thanks again for all the accurate information on THIS forum!

Tom

tbrogan on 12-05-2007 07:04 PM

#8 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Quote:

Are you saying this is something we are able to run with now?

YES! Wait no longer! This is ready to use NOW.

ddmobley on 12-06-2007 12:06 AM

#9 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Darrell and RP "Gang":

I guess I'm still a bit fuzzy on this (haven't had enough coffee this morning!) Since Sections are already "chartered" as part of the National Association of Rocketry, and since the NAR is an "Association", aren't NAR Sections already an "Association" by association?

So all we'd have to do as NAR Sections is change the wording in our individual Constitution and Bylaws to show we are an "association" instead of a "club", and add a section regarding "LEUP Permits" stating..."The Association intends to obtain a Federal Low Explosives Users Permit..." I know as an association it wouuld save my club corporate fees with the Washington State Secretary.

Patiently waiting for enlightenment...

Best Regards
Tim Quigg NAR 62887 L2 TSO
Section Advisor
Blue Mt Rocketeers NAR # 615
www.bmr615.org

tquigg on 12-06-2007 10:10 AM

#10 Re: Latest information about using club-based BATF permits

Quote:

Since Sections are already "chartered" as part of the National Association of Rocketry, and since the NAR is an "Association", aren't NAR Sections already an "Association" by association?

Tim, no need to be confused any longer. You are exactly correct. Modify your club's bylaws to include the necessary wording indicating one of your purposes is to procure regulated items for your members, secure storage that will pass federal approval, submit an application for a federal permit listing who the responsible parties will be, and start enjoying the expanded benefit of allowing users to join who don't need to worry about explosives licensing requirements.

This arrangement should also prove very beneficial for those Tripoli prefectures that participate in experimental research activities as well. Under the Safe Explosives Act (SEA) of 2002, while individuals are allowed to manufacture propellant for their own personal use without a federal explosives permit, once mixed, the propellant could not be transported by the individual over local roads or highways to a launch site, even within the individual's state of residence. For this reason, since the implementation of SEA in March of 2003, home-made propellants would have had to be mixed "on-site" so that no transportation occurred if the individual making the propellant did not have a federal explosives permit. Using the above arrangement, a club's "responsible persons" could accept for transport the research propellant for the individual participating in research activities and then transport it to the launch site along with the rest of the club's regulated materials.

ddmobley on 12-06-2007 10:33 AM

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