jrcoxx

Lessons Learned:

1) Make sure you always have a copy of your LEUP when enroute to a rocket launch
2) Store all motors in appropriate containers
3) Smile and appreciate our law enforcement officers

denverdoc

Sugar motors with cat litter? Is this a new higher impulse CHO/KnO3 formula? I wonder how much $$ has been wasted to date on this case.

heada

Cat littler can be wetted and then pressed into a nozzle. It is single use, but for that single use it works. I understand that is what Estes used for many years.

-Aaron

Steve_Shannon

The line in this story that bothers me was where the federal judge said that the suspect had not established the innocence of his intent. We have reason to fear terrorist acts. We must be vigilant. But, we must not sacrifice our principle of presumption of innocence.

denverdoc

That what bugged me the most too, Steve.

Cat litter nozzles--no kidding. Well I guess the chief ingredient is clay. I thought water putty was used for these apps nowadays. But if it works, Meow!

Just Jerry

Too late.

Just Jerry

SpaceCowboy

Hey,

Wow, what a cool test situation to determine what is preperation for terrorism and what is interest in a hobby!

I think there needs to be a clear determination of what these were?

Were they "Sugar Rocket" motors for "model" rockets or for fireworks! If they were homemade composite solid rocket motors for interest in model rocketry that is one thing. BUT, if they were:

Fireworks: meaning go up in the air and explode, that is another story.

Rockets: meaning go up in the air and return to earth via parachute or ballistic recovery.

Regardless of anything just from the stories information so far: they were transporting the stuff illegally. And, the rocketry community needs to distance themselves and differentiate themselves from anything todo with fireworks, even ballistic recovery model rockets.

The video: Oh man! Talk about something that will get you detained for an indeterminant duration! Did it have a disclaimer that this video is not to be used by persons who will use it against US persons or property. OEY! I'm thinking it is illegal or at least dumb to make a video like that anyway!

It is all about the facts and the details!

Question: Why did the officers search their car?

Has anyone made a video to explain how to determine if stuff is for terrorist purposes or just for hobby purposes! I miss the days when you could ride down the street passed the gate of a USAF base on your bicycle with a six foot long "MODEL" rocket of a qatush, and all the police would do is look at you and say to each other, "There goes that crazy boy with another rocket, guess we better call the fire department to let them know, AGAIN!"

This story is great it has a serious side and a noway they arrested you for that! I see a book deal and movie and TV appearances!

My prediction from all the information so far: They will be fined for transporting illegally, and serve as a learning experience about what you don't do, unless you want to be arrested an squeezed through the ringer!

porthos

Here's a youtube video showing a kid making a sugar motor with a kitty litter knozzle. Notice he's using fertilizer for the oxidizer..... ;-P

http://www.youtube.com/wat...G2g8BMJs&feature=related

denverdoc

can't beat that with a stick. To think I have invested thousands of dollars in rocketry....

Steve_Shannon

Yeah, but then again you probably are too smart and careful to pound on sugar propellant with a steel ram and a two pound iron hammer while the propellant is contained in a pipe about ten inches from your bare legs, femoral artery, and crotch.

denverdoc

You're right, he should be using brass or a soft deadblow.

UhClem

Some more information.

First of all what I found interesting about this case is that the defense appears as though they are going to try and make a case that the materials found were not explosives in the sense of 18 USC 841(d). Which is very similar to what is going on now with the TRA/NAR lawsuit against the ATF.

The materials were sent to an FBI laboratory in Quantico, VA for analysis. The report identifies some of the samples as an explosive mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate. No mention is made of any analysis of the proportions.

The FBI then tested compositions that they prepared. No attempt was made to recreate the material they had found except the generic materials used.

"The range (60/40, 70,30, and 80,20) of oxidizer (KNO3)/fuel (powdered sugar or Karo Syrup) ratios were selected based on a reasonable range of what is commonly found in low explosive mixtures."

The tests of course produced nothing resembling an explosion.

"The KNO3/powdered sugar mixtures in the 60/40 and the 70/30 ratios produced the most violent reactions. These ratios produced enough heat to cause the PVC pipes to melt and burn."

Melting and burning the PVC doesn't sound like much of an explosion.


The prosecution has of course filed a motion in opposition. They cite the fact the the ATF's list of explosive materials lists potassium nitrate explosive mixtures and safety fuse. There is of course no question that the material at hand is a potassium nitrate mixture. But there was no evidence submitted proving that it was explosive.

This is very similar to what happened in the lawsuit.

Also, the prosecution fails to tell the court that there is an exemption for safety fuse at 18 USC 845(a)(5). But the phrasing of the exemption at 18 USC is different from the exemption in the regulations:

"commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms..."

27 CFR 555.141(b) "Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms,..."

The intent requirement in the law applies to all of the listed items but in the ATF regulation the intent requirement is explicitly limited to black powder. Which could make for some interesting problems. Such as the ATF allowing the legal sale of fuse to someone who is subsequently charged with illegally transporting explosives.


The charge for the video is the result of 18 USC 842(p) which makes it a crime punishable by up to 20 years in prison to:

(2) Prohibition.— It shall be unlawful for any person—
(A) to teach or demonstrate the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence;


Proving the intent tends to be the tricky part. But if the intent is stated in the video, then it is an open and shut case as they say.

denverdoc

UC,

Thanks for the additional info. It does sound a lot like the TRA/NAR v. BATFE. At least re the propellant chemicals. The tape is another issue entirely. The intent here is clear, but at least raises the spectre that any information on the net which is later used by a terrorist in constructing say a shoulder launched missile makes the poster liable (as well as the host site)--or is this too long a stretch for even the most ardent effort at law enforcement?

Aphyle

Just out of curiousity, I did a quick YouTube search for "shoulder rocket launchers," and saw a lot of precocious and not-well supervised kids. This was after seeing the one video of the bare-footed, short-wearing kid pound kittylitter and propellant into a pvc tube, then drill out a burn hole with a powerdrill. This looked like a candidate for the Darwin Awards.

So where is the line between malicious intent, and ill-informed stupidity? I guess that depends on the video. I've heard it said that the most common last words of a "redneck" are, "Hey! Watch this!" I suppose one could check the video to see if it contains those words, as opposed to commonly-heard religious invocations.

BTW - the launch of the rocket with the above mentioned engine also looked like a good way to set fire to brush on the sand dunes. But that is another story...

random thoughts...

jr-rocket

to bad we can't all be that smart

denverdoc

Ah, but if we were, think of the entertainment value lost.

SpaceCowboy

Wow, from all the posts, the question is now raised if the video is even a crime, because there is no intent that the video was to be an instructional video on how to create weapons that would be used against America, in America, or against Americans.

Is it a crime if someone made a video for American citizens on how to create IDW's (Improvised Defensive Weapons) to be used against invading forces foreign or domestic? OEY!

And, if you teach people how to make weapons or use weapons, it is a crime? What about self defense class teachers? Marshall Arts teachers? Counter Terrorism class teachers? All the mercenary training materials! Chingassa

Where do we draw the line? It seems any information can be used for good or bad purposes!

I don't think it is a stretch to say that a government would say you can't do any of this, because they would not want the people to have the ability to overthrow or kick them out! (Like Americans did the British!)

Am I stiring up the pot! Yowwzzaaaa!

I am still wondering why they searched the car on a routine traffic stop? Have I missed something?

denverdoc

Location (near weapons depot) and ethnicity likely figured into it. Maybe some of the item mentioned (ammo, gun cleaning materials) also figured into it--if those were in plain view, maybe the search was reasonable. Since no objection was made on these grounds by the defense, I'm assuming that was the case, but still suspect that two white crew-cutted frat boys from Ga Tech would likely have not been subject to the same level of scrutiny. Such is the effect of being at war.

SpaceCowboy

Hi,

Ok, I have been researching all the news reports, and they were 7 miles away from a Navy Base (Media Hype non factor) and no combatants were being held there, and know special weapons are housed there. The officer asked if he could search the car because when he walked up to the car the passenger was looking at his laptop and close it, and this was suspicious behavior to the officer? Ethnicity was a HUGE factor! (America is now in a Terrorist Mentality Mode because people around the world are retaliating against America and American citizens because of the sins of our government, past and present! We are reaping what we have shoveled out!) The items were not in plain site they were in the trunk. This has been the biggest 4 million dollar waste of taxpayer money.

The two "dumb" (I call them that because they should have know better) kids should have not consented to allow the officer to search the car because he did not have sufficient cause. (Your totally right if they would have been two WHITE college boys they would have been let go, even if they would of had the laptop open, the bullets and gun cleaning equipment, the skyrockets on the back seat, Ok, would bet a million dollars they would have been let go!) demonstrating this to be a case of pure racial profiling)

No wonder we can't catch real terrorists, when we are harrassing dumb college students. After, looking at all the reports any NORMAL person would have just given them a speeding ticket and sent them on their way.

I love America, but my daddy taught me a couple of sayings when I was younger, "A dog won't bite the hand that feeds it, unless that hand abuses it!" "You beat a dog long enough it will go crazy and turn around and bite you!"

It sucks to live in a "free" society! Where you get stopped and if your papers aren't in order it's off with your head! OEY!

Question: How come solid rocket motors do not have to be shipped in ATF containers and you can buy them at the stores without them? If we have to store them in a nuclear proof container why don't they come that way? That should be the new regulation!

It's kind of like, why do we build cars that go a hundred miles per hour when the speed limit is 60! WTH!

Ok, I am cutting myself off of the caffiene and stepping away from the computer! I am juz openin up a whole can of worms! Don't get me started! Take a deep breath and let it go!

Anyway, "GOD bless........everyone, and have a nice launch day!"

Art Upton

Just an FYI,

the SpaceCowboy poster above me is not me under a different name that I have under my byline that I go by.

I do not know who he is.

denverdoc

Art,

Hi. We do know who he is, and would never make the mistake of confusing the two of you. He has since ridden off into the sunset and has asked to have his acct deleted.

ddmobley

OMG, flashbacks.

UncleVanya

There was never any danger of anyone thinking that he was you. No offense to Mr. Spacecowboy, but to paraphrase the words of Loyd Benson, "I know the real SpaceCowboy, Mr. SpaceCowboy, and you are no Art Upton..."

Your prose is uniquely you and nothing like the other fella... .