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 VAN ORIN, Illinois USA — LDRS 2008 is scheduled to be an exciting event and more contests are being added all the time. Tim Lehr of Wildman Rocketry has just upped the ante with his contribution to the latest LDRS contest: an event called Shred the Wildman contest.
The contest is open to all motor manufacturers, and will be a challenge to see if that manufacturer's motor can shred a Wildman dual-deployment rocket. This will allow the manufacturers a chance to show their stuff in a friendly competition, and is also meant to display the strength of the Wildman rocket along with Wildman's soon-to-be-released Proline epoxy. The rockets used in the contest will be standard Wildman kits that will be assembled by a customer of Wildman Rocketry following the standard instructions. They are built for, and the contest dictates, 54mm motors, so the manufacturers are allowed to use any 54mm motor that will fit in the standard kit. Should a manufacturer's motor succeed in shredding one of the Wildman rockets, Lehr will donate $200 to the non-profit charity of the manufacturer's choice. All of the rockets that survive will be auctioned off at the LDRS member banquet with the proceeds going to charity, with the exception of one, which will given to the Wildman Rocketry customer who built them all for the contest. "This is just one way of showing the confidence I have in our kits," Lehr said. Wildman kits come with a lifetime guarantee, a committment that no other kit manufacturer is offering. "By the way. I have not had to replace one yet in three years," Lehr added. There is one catch to the contest: if a manufacturer's motor cato's, they must pay for the parts they destroy, at Lehr's cost. "I will put an R-DAS system in these," Lehr said. "So we can see all of the data from these spectacular flights as they happen." Website: http://www.wildmanrocketry.com/
03-04-2008 09:06 PM
#1
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
With all the neck-snapping flights planned, we should approach makers of Advil for some sponsorship$$  |
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03-04-2008 09:21 PM
#2
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Level 3
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 25
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
So who is the customer that get's to build the rockets? I would be glad to offer my services.
Oh, and by the way this contest just pegged the needle on my WTF detector.
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03-04-2008 09:40 PM
#3
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
my only and small diappointment--is that the offer seems to be extended to commercial manufacturers. I know that Mike Fisher for instance has some loads as do many other ams that would have Tim signing checks like a superbowl hero doing autographs. He is a great sport--when W9 hit the scene he was offering free reloads to anyone who dared. I did. Heck of a flight. lost the rocket til much later, but to hit Mach at a couple hundred feet, priceless...
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03-04-2008 11:07 PM
#4
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Certified Level Two
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
So, now with all the X-Wing, Smash Lab and Master Blaster stuff behind us. We are now having a contest, at our National Event, to see who can make peoples rockets shred on purpose? Maybe we can start looking for yet another insurance carrier.
Tony
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03-04-2008 11:10 PM
#5
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: With all the neck-snapping flights planned, we should approach makers of Advil for some sponsorship$$
The proper strategy is NOT a neck snapper, but a good ole-fashioned progressive case bonded coreburner.
As for "safety code concerns", this is squarely within the rules by far.
Just Jerry |
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03-05-2008 01:45 AM
#6
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Certified Level Two
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 51
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Man, this sounds like a LOT of fun! I have *got* to find a way to make it to LDRS this year!
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03-05-2008 03:39 AM
#7
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Certified Level One
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 27
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
A Few Questions...
What is the longest motor that can be put in this kit?
Does the motor used have to be certified at the time of the flight?
Tom
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03-05-2008 07:43 AM
#8
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New Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I was thinking the same thing Tom... I'm sure you've got something up your sleeve that's capable of testing the limits of this thing..
Quote: A Few Questions...
What is the longest motor that can be put in this kit?
Does the motor used have to be certified at the time of the flight?
Tom |
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03-05-2008 10:04 AM
#9
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Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 198
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Testing the limits. What a novel idea.
But the little dark siders should show up in short order.
Chuck
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03-05-2008 11:15 AM
#10
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Certifiable
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 482
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: A Few Questions...
What is the longest motor that can be put in this kit?
Does the motor used have to be certified at the time of the flight?
Tom
From "The Forum That Shall Not Be Named" Tim said the booster section is 48" but needs space for an eye-bolt and so a motor of 42" should fit. Also, motors do not have to be certified but they must be by a motor manufacturer that does have certified motors. (he said demo motors are allowed)
http://www.rocketryforum.c...php?p=529146&postcount=4
and
http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=529230&postcount=13
-Aaron |
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03-05-2008 03:50 PM
#11
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
This and the mach madness has me wondering--if you really wanted to make a rocket shredproof--what materials (no aluminum) and methods would be best?
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03-05-2008 04:28 PM
#12
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Certified Level Two
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
For Mach madness, should check with Robert DeHate. He's done some > Mach 2.4 scorchers with a carbon fiber model that recovered with some pretty cool paint burns. I've heard he's going to be going for some greater
speed in the future.
Kurt
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03-05-2008 04:29 PM
#13
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Certified Level Two
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Can someone explain to me how putting a motor in a rocket which is hoped to shred said rocket is not a violation of TRA safety code item #5?
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03-05-2008 04:39 PM
#14
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: Can someone explain to me how putting a motor in a rocket which is hoped to shred said rocket is not a violation of TRA safety code item #5?
Because that is the position of the motor guy. The position of the airframe guy is it is unshredable. Therefore the "expectation" from the motivating person and the claimed expert is safety.
Was that noise plausable enough?
Just Jerry |
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03-05-2008 05:10 PM
#15
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: For Mach madness, should check with Robert DeHate. He's done some > Mach 2.4 scorchers with a carbon fiber model that recovered with some pretty cool paint burns. I've heard he's going to be going for some greater
speed in the future.
Kurt
Kurt,
Based on what I am hearing on the composites forum, mach 2.4 is likely just the opening ante. I'm guessing M4 or close will take home the bacon. |
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03-05-2008 05:16 PM
#16
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Certified Level Two
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: Kurt,
Based on what I am hearing on the composites forum, mach 2.4 is likely just the opening ante. I'm guessing M4 or close will take home the bacon.
Yeah,
I believe Mach 4 was the next level Robert mentioned to me via email
he was shooting for. Man, the heat flux on the airframe has got to be
something.
Kurt |
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03-05-2008 05:21 PM
#17
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
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03-05-2008 05:46 PM
#18
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Certifiable
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 50
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I posted this on the TRA list as well. I’m not sure why turning Tim’s rockets into confetti and trashing perfectly good hardware in the process has any benefit for the motor manufacturers aside from entertainment value at their expense. CTI and AT for that matter have commercial motor technology that will get the job done without doing anything exotic but to what end? Given the Hollywood exposure the hobby has received lately, are you sure you really want to do this intentionally?
Particulate recovery is fun for shits and giggles but I’m not convinced this is a good idea.
Sorry Tim.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto |
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03-05-2008 08:09 PM
#19
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: I posted this on the TRA list as well. I’m not sure why turning Tim’s rockets into confetti and trashing perfectly good hardware in the process has any benefit for the motor manufacturers aside from entertainment value at their expense. CTI and AT for that matter have commercial motor technology that will get the job done without doing anything exotic but to what end? Given the Hollywood exposure the hobby has received lately, are you sure you really want to do this intentionally?
Particulate recovery is fun for shits and giggles but I’m not convinced this is a good idea.
Sorry Tim.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
Actually your post raises a current problem with (whats left of) this pig of an industry.
The last few remaining participants in HPR are so concerned about perception they do stupid things.
They subject themselves to ATF years before ATF does, as you did.
People judge other rocketeers behavior within the safety code as risky to others who feel while it might be compliant it might leave the wrong impression, as you did.
There is a secret society (TRA list) who is considered incrementally more high and mighty than the mere peons (rocketry planet), like you did.
Then some people make sideswipe references to media rocketry exposures on already and clearly exploitive and purile TV, as if it has any relation to the daily safety of consumer rocketry, which it does not (per Eric gates), as you did.
Hmmm.
Just paying attention.
Just Jerry
Nice reverse hybrids! |
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03-05-2008 10:11 PM
#20
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Tim seems to generate controversy as a matter of course. I recall during his BoD campaign, lotta folks took swipes for what they consider an indifference to certain safety issues. Having him come out to Colorado for a three day was a real treat IMO. He still has fun, not all of flights are successful, but he loves the hobby and the love is infectious. tim is kinda like the Chi-Chi Rodriguez or Lee Trevino of the PGA golf tour in the 70's--these guys injected life and humor into what was becoming the dullest party in memory.
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03-05-2008 10:14 PM
#21
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from way back before RO
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 246
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: Actually your post raises a current problem with (whats left of) this pig of an industry.
The last few remaining participants in HPR are so concerned about perception they do stupid things.
They subject themselves to ATF years before ATF does, as you did.
People judge other rocketeers behavior within the safety code as risky to others who feel while it might be compliant it might leave the wrong impression, as you did.
There is a secret society (TRA list) who is considered incrementally more high and mighty than the mere peons (rocketry planet), like you did.
Then some people make sideswipe references to media rocketry exposures on already and clearly exploitive and purile TV, as if it has any relation to the daily safety of consumer rocketry, which it does not (per Eric gates), as you did.
Hmmm.
Just paying attention.
Just Jerry
Nice reverse hybrids!
Jerry.....just as way back when.....I'm going to have to put you on my ignore list.
It's always been some "secret" or "high than thou" something with you.
I know you have a lot to offer the community, when you stay away from the politics. You just can't leave them alone. You've always had a chip on your shoulder, and that has not faded over the years. You act like you are the only person in the world interested in rockets as well as the rules, regulations, and restrictions surrounding them.
I find you are a perfect example of our society, always pointing a finger at someone else. A person can always find fault in others, but few can find their own.
Do what you like, say what you like, it is a free country. Just lucky, I will not be listening.
James L |
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03-05-2008 10:15 PM
#22
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I want to fly with that guy. Safety is delivered by the safety code, not by enforcing "safe flights". Rockets fail. I want them to. I learn from that.
Just Jerry
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03-05-2008 10:22 PM
#23
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote:
I know you have a lot to offer the community, when you stay away from the politics. You just can't leave them alone.
James L
There IS politics. I simply am rude enough to say so and not stay quiet as a means to be "polite".
Wanna filter me? Cool! I will [not> miss the whining about reality and you miss the 80% that is nuggets of accuracy that is not controversial.
In support of my "political" statements I cite this choice quote (from a mere federal judge).
"The problem in this case is that
ATFE's explanation for its
determination that APCP deflagrates
lacks any coherence. We therefore
owe no deference to ATFE's
purported expertise because we
cannot discern it. ATFE has neither
laid out a concrete standard for
classifying materials along the
burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum,
nor offered data specific to the burn
speed of APCP when used for its
common or primary purpose. On this
record, the agency's decision cannot
withstand judicial review."
Which I post to support my overriding position in life, "QUESTION AUTHORITY"
[with facts and cites>
Just Jerry |
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03-05-2008 10:34 PM
#24
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: I want to fly with that guy. Safety is delivered by the safety code, not by enforcing "safe flights". Rockets fail. I want them to. I learn from that.
Just Jerry
Well if you guys ever do get together, lemme know--that would be a helluva interesting blast.
LDRS already promises to be a shreadfest of the greatest magnitude--there the raining debris issue dictates being further out for sure and no collateral activities/or somekind of shelter. And maybe it is a cheap publicity stunt for his kits, but a donation to charity, you can't argue with that. |
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03-05-2008 10:59 PM
#25
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Freeform rockets advocate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 570
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: Well if you guys ever do get together, lemme know--that would be a helluva interesting blast.
LDRS already promises to be a shreadfest of the greatest magnitude--there the raining debris issue dictates being further out for sure and no collateral activities/or some kind of shelter. And maybe it is a cheap publicity stunt for his kits, but a donation to charity, you can't argue with that.
At minimum I suggest staying up-wind and up-range.
Overhead protection is not offered by econocars or RV's.
Hey!! At least you have TRA insurance!
Just Jerry |
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03-06-2008 12:30 AM
#26
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no title
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 24
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I think Tim is rethinking this whole thing based on the the comments he's gotten on another forum...
"I bet you can't shred my rocket over a crowd at LDRS! Yes! Prove me wrong with your biggest and baddest motor! Yes! And buy my product! Yes!"
Seems CTI has already said publicly "Are you nuts?" "No!"
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03-06-2008 08:48 AM
#27
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Certifiable
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 50
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: Actually your post raises a current problem with (whats left of) this pig of an industry.
The last few remaining participants in HPR are so concerned about perception they do stupid things.
They subject themselves to ATF years before ATF does, as you did.
People judge other rocketeers behavior within the safety code as risky to others who feel while it might be compliant it might leave the wrong impression, as you did.
There is a secret society (TRA list) who is considered incrementally more high and mighty than the mere peons (rocketry planet), like you did.
Then some people make sideswipe references to media rocketry exposures on already and clearly exploitive and purile TV, as if it has any relation to the daily safety of consumer rocketry, which it does not (per Eric gates), as you did.
Hmmm.
Just paying attention.
Just Jerry
Nice reverse hybrids!
Jerry,
Are you going to LDRS this year? We can swap some motors.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto |
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03-06-2008 09:26 AM
#28
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: I think Tim is rethinking this whole thing based on the the comments he's gotten on another forum...
"I bet you can't shred my rocket over a crowd at LDRS! Yes! Prove me wrong with your biggest and baddest motor! Yes! And buy my product! Yes!"
Seems CTI has already said publicly "Are you nuts?" "No!"
If so then does Mach Madness get scratched? Seems to me the two offer similar risks/hazards. |
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03-06-2008 10:42 AM
#29
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New Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I am not rethinking this
i don't know where you got that idea from
I have been told by at amw that they where in and just been asked by contrail if they could play
I don't know whats up with CTI but they where a maybe to start with
I have not herd back from loki yet either
This contest is on
I do not plan endangering anybody like you are insinuating
I don't think they can do it and i am willing to back it up with my check book
anybody else will to do that ?
Make what you want out of this
But I believe that this is a win win for everybody
consumers might get a new motor out of it
I get to prove how strong the Wildman Rocket and Proline Epoxy are
money goes to charity
What else would you like ?
Change the name thats not going to happen
I will not bow down to political pressure I thought the name of the contest is cool and to the point
Tim
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03-06-2008 10:54 AM
#30
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Will fly beer for rockets
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1658
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
I hope that the data logged by the avionics are made available for all flights in this challenge. Post flight analysis should be interesting, regardless of the outcome.
Personally, I'm rootin' for Tim's rockets to not shred.
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03-06-2008 10:58 AM
#31
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Rana sapiens
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
hey me too, but FWFG tubing has a speed limit, and certainly the fins look vulnerable. But Tim is putting his money where his mouth is. I wish him luck.
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03-06-2008 11:23 AM
#32
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Will fly beer for rockets
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1658
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: ...FWFG tubing has a speed limit... Why? Thermal loading? |
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03-06-2008 12:41 PM
#33
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New Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
The express purpose of mach madness is twofold - 1. to fly as fast as you can and safely recover the rocket. 2. to raise money for the club coffers. It's really got nothing to do with intentionally trying to shred an airframe...And no disrespect, but the only surefire way to mitigate risks and hazards is not to press the launch button
Jerry O
Quote: If so then does Mach Madness get scratched? Seems to me the two offer similar risks/hazards. |
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03-06-2008 12:46 PM
#34
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Oddroc-eteer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 134
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
If Mach Madness gets scrubbed I guess they should have every flier submit sim data to make sure they are also not going to break mach.
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03-06-2008 12:48 PM
#35
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Crazier every day L3#7764
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 56
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Tim, Glad to hear your thoughts are where they are on this contest!
Quote: LDRS already promises to be a shreadfest of the greatest magnitude--there the raining debris issue dictates being further out for sure and no collateral activities/or somekind of shelter.
This past year at AirFest I recall on Research day, there were at least 5 in-flight shreads which I saw personally including one of my own, and two from friends of mine in our club. Another 6" FG rocket lawn dart, and a 4" N PSAN that catoed. These were all intended to push the edge of what we knew. They were all flown from safe distances. They all came down (or went up) in peices at safe distances. We didn't need a contest to make us push the edge, and we all vowed to come back next year and push even harder. We'd do it anyway. Bob has a very good, and very safe pad arangement in Argonia. For all but one of my flights, it was easier to just put my rocket in the car and drive to the pad. And as we all know, Airfest and LDRS will be one in the same this year.
I think the Wildman's contest and Mach Madness are GREAT ideas. They will show everyone the cutting edge of high speed construction. And like Jerry said, if it shreads or catos, you bet we'll learn from it and improve upon our designs based on the knowledge we gain from our failures, be it the airframe, motor, or both.
Contests are great for inspiration and motivation. Two more words, X Prize. |
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03-06-2008 12:58 PM
#36
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Administrator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2146
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Is it the high price of gas? Is it Hilary vs. Obama? No lawsuit settlement? I detect angst and aggression all over...
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03-06-2008 12:59 PM
#37
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Will fly beer for rockets
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1658
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: If Mach Madness gets scrubbed I guess they should have every flier submit sim data to make sure they are also not going to break mach. And affidavits that they are going to wear their seatbelts.  The greatest human risk of any rocket launch (other than one in my own back yard) is probably the chance of a car accident coming or going. |
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03-06-2008 01:10 PM
#38
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1471
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Quote: If Mach Madness gets scrubbed I guess they should have every flier submit sim data to make sure they are also not going to break mach.
That's hilarious Dick... |
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03-06-2008 01:16 PM
#39
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1471
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Re: Wildman offering motor manufacturer’s contest at LDRS
Assuming Tim is correct and virtually no one's motor is able to shred or otherwise damage the rocket - then there is not a real risk here. This is different from someone intending to shred a rocket. Tim is staking a claim that his rocket is not going to shred - and daring folks to test this.
This seems like great marketing and assuming he is right it will be a fun thing to watch and get data from. If a rocket does shred then at least people who might fly this rocket will know more about the absolute limits of this construction for future flights.
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03-06-2008 01:22 PM
#40
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Oddroc-eteer
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