Just Jerry

Very deserving of that award.

I think you mean famous not infamous. [thanks for the edit>

Just Jerry

Steve_Shannon

Jerry,
I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I agree with you that this is a deserved award.

Did you know him? What was he like?

Just Jerry

I knew him pretty well.

On the personal side he was "salty". Most books I have read about real rocketeers classify them as hard drinking, hard smoking, hard-ass types. He was somewhat close to that.

He was also focused in his life on applying safety principals to hobby rocketry, initially to solve a national hazard problem, then to greatly expand access to the general public. By general public I do not mean 4000 blessed souls with written authorization to fly rockets. I mean the general public at large with no access restrictions, widespread public mindshare in the millions and most local parks littered with expended motor casings.

Exemptions and a safety code. NOT codify everything regulations.

He also developed the "misfire alley" range set-up I always drone on about. It allowed me to help 4000 HPR (then MRT) folks to fly rockets CONTINUOUSLY at Lucerne all day long on several occasions. Magical.

I will never forget a NAR annual meeting at NARAM I attended where he raised a point of order for discussion, argued strongly in favor of it in a feverish debate, then voted against it. Just to show how stupid of an idea it was to codify everything when safety was already installed and prevailed. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

His book "Handbook of Model Rocketry" has been a central part of so many lives it is hard to describe it. Not all rocketeers now of course, but his style teaches people to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. He hated the nannystate.

G. Harry Stine, is not a rocket god, he is THE rocket god.

Jerry Irvine

denverdoc

I wish I could find as good a book--at 11 or 12, I found a copy at the public library: it was life-changing. I was most captivated with pics of multi staged rockets that well looked like real multistaged rockets. All my life I dreamed of building such a rocket. Well at the tender age of 50 I finally got to it. People who say dreams are kid stuff, and the sooner one outgrows them the better, I've got news. Outside of the birth of my two daughters and the joy they bring to my life, I have had exactly two supreme moments in my life: the first was publishing in Science (with an editorial if not the cover pic) and flying this beast: a peak experience as it did a frozen rope, staged and recovered perfectly. This is not about me and my 20 seconds of glory--its about people like G Harry who inspire the best in us, Salty, crusty, whatever I would trade a dozen of (fill in the blanks) for one G Harry. PS: the young man in the foreground--thats telephoto foreshortening he really was several hundred feet back.

UncleVanya

I know HPR is High Power Rocketry, but what is MRT?

Steve_Shannon

Model Rocket Technology

Here is an interesting article about early LDRS history.

UncleVanya

That is an eye-opening read. Doesn't put Bunny in a good light does it?

UncleVanya

That is an eye-opening read. It's funny. I have a feeling that Harry Stein and the author of that article would have gotten along famously. Not sure about Harry and Bunny...

denverdoc

The word weenie comes to mind, but I have been told this is a term best reserved for tailgate parties. That his brain is integratin sound pressure level and doing the integration in real time, impressive--that he winces and worries--well therein is the future of NAR).

Steve_Shannon

It's all context. Looking back at it "Flying a G" seems like a tempest in a teapot, but look at it another way. If someone brought an uncertified motor, bigger than had ever been flown at your club, and flew it without getting permission, would you be concerned?

UncleVanya

Certainly. That wasn't the specific issue I was looking at. I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that as far as I read this - the launch was not a sanctioned NAR launch. I get the impression that the NAR tried to regulate and control the members of the group when they were acting outside of sanctioned events.

Maybe I don't have all the history. Maybe as a member of NAR you agreed to only launch certified motors even when you were on your own in a private field.

Just Jerry

That is certainly the perspective from the midwest with several key names and events intentionally redacted.

It is also already late in the game.

But I did note this quote:

"In the next two years, the NAR zealots tried every which way to prevent LDRS from
happening. They threatened to contact the FAA to check the waiver (I told them to go
ahead), got in touch with the Medina city prosecutor, fire and police departments, even
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (otherwise known as the ATF), in attempts
to shut it down. They failed."

Tripoli later adopted this practice aaginst "de-blessed" vendors.

I do believe a fuller presentation of how HPR got started as MRT can be found here:

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/CRm.htm

Just Jerry

TRA 012

Steve_Shannon

"NAR zealots" (which may have been most of the leadership at that time - I don't know) did try to do that, but the only mention I found of Bunny in this article is in this paragraph:



That seems to indicate that the activities that Bunny was concerned about were NAR Section events. He wasn't even president at the time, Pat Miller was, and he tried to keep NAR members from attending. Later in the article says that "NAR zealots" contacted the ATF to try to get LDRS shut down. No wonder we have troubles with ATF today.

UncleVanya

Jerry - this is a wealth of info. Are these available for download? It's hard to read them at the size presented sometimes I'd like to be able to scale it up a bit.

Just Jerry

That was just one of 10-15 examples of similar behavior by NAR. When TRA later also did that, both FAA and BATF initiated an internal investigation to see if there was a "problem".

That internal review found that the people claiming rockets were being flown with no FAA waiver were making false claims. Notably TRA/Chuck Rogers included.

BATF actions were never externally communicated, presumably because they are a type of police. None of the "reports" ever ended up on an "incident list".

TRA and NAR engage in scorched earth tactics. A far cry from the GHS days where the biggest club was "Rogers' Rules of Order".

Jerry

Steve_Shannon

Jerry,
If you have a set of the originals, I would scan them to PDFs and make them available. I'll even return the originals to you.

shockwaveriderz

As usual, JI has turned comments directed towards one topic , towards his most favorite topic: himself.


I met G. Harry as a 14 yr old kid at NARAM-12 in Houston TX; it was no more than "Hi Mr. Stine", but I remember a smile coming on his face and him saying hello back to me.

While I will always admire G. Harry Stine for what he accomplished in his life, I also think that he, Vern Estes, et al made a "deal with the devil" , in the case of the NFPA. The deal being, the NFPA would not consider model rockets as "fireworks" and in return we accepted their regulations. It's almost ironic that nobody has ever been accused of violating any of the NFPA regulations, and probably never will be.

Model rocketry grew and flourished here in the US from 1957-1968 without any NFPA regulations. Sure certain communities still banned MR, but heck, ANY community can do that still today with a simple ordinance if they so desire; NFPA regulation or not!.



There's been a rumour floating around that G. Harry once remarked, that he was the man most responsible for putting fireworks into the hands of all American children; and making it legal at the same time. I don't know if he ever said this, but it strikes me as very likely.

As for this video: simply fantastic! How often do you get to see a REAL Carlisle Mark 2 actually taking off at Hogback Rocket Range? Or Del Hitch, NAR #3 in his spiffy white Model Missiles,Inc Flight Test Crew jumpsuit?

excellent James!

terry dean
nar 16158

Just Jerry

I disagree with your first remark as my comments related to a long line of NAR/TRA actions, only a couple against me. There were PLENTY of others.

NFPA is not an inherently bad idea. The fact it is not enforced is GOOD. That makes it guidelines to the extent clubs leave ALL enforcement to government, which they consistently fail to do, then enforce situationally.

The idea that different levels of authorities have an authoratative place to point to for definitions of CONSUMER ROCKETRY is perfectly valid.

I simply point out the strategy of "codifying everything" works badly overall, and needs to be replaced by language of "exemptions and a safety code" "operations guidelines" list.

THAT is what got us to the safety record we have and varying from that has ADDED incidents and even INJURIES, but thankfully not serious injuries or deaths yet.

I say if it works, stop fixing it. It is not too late to go with my (and GHS's philosophy) (exemptions and a safety code). It would take 3 years for any such edit to arrive into published NFPA code, but what say we start now.

Just Jerry

Naturally I presume that "historian" thinks THIS is all about me too.

shockwaveriderz

I disagree with you that NFPA 1122 wasn't a bad idea. It was the beginning of onerous regulation on a hobby that has stellar credentials when it comes to 50 years of safety.

Sometime take a look at the original NFPA 1122 from 67-68 and take a look at it today. Talk about bloat. And yes it is a good thing that nobody has ever been charged permitting with a NFPA violation( which would require the local fire marshal person to : 1. know NFPA 1122 which they mostly don't know even exists in most localities and 2. actually witness a violation.

It may have been a good idea back then as a compromise but look whats its grown into: a monstrous web of onerous regulation that is there simply for the sake of regulation.

I agree that as far as model rocketry is concerned that regulation other than exemptions from state laws and the Safety Code is about all that is needed. This can be shown to be true as I would gather than 99.99999% of the people who have purchased model rocket products since 1968 have never been hurt by such products. Did the NFPA 1122 regulation perform this function? I seriously doubt it. More likely the people just simply read the NARMRSC that appears with model rocket products and followed that.

In both Indiana and Kentucky they have state law exemptions for model rocket from the state fireworks codes. So do a number of other states: with these state exemptions why do we also need NFPA regulations?. The answer, of course, is we don't. The NFPA Trilogy of 1122/1125/1127 wasn't even knowingly adopted in the state of KY; it was snuck in under the radar in NFPA 1; thanks to YOUR NAR. And was done so for a lot of other states too!. Here in Indiana, the NFPA trilogy were removed as the state fire marshal said they were "unenforceable" which if course they are. Fire Marshal's have much more important things to do with their time then to seek out 12 yr old model rocketeers that may unknowingly violate some obscure section of a unknown NFPA regulation.

I also want to point out that I think HPR needs to be regulated as HPR are much more dangerous than any model rocket ever will be (due to weight/size/power) except maybe for that plastic toy Estes X-15.

I also think NFPA 1122 belongs in the trashcan of history. We could scrap it tomorrow and there would be no effect whatsoever on safety in model rocketry.

And yes Jerry I consder myself a modle rocket historian, and to prove it I'll tell you a little story.

G. Harry Stine remarked in his memoir how "back in the day" when model rocketry was just 1st getting started, how he had meetings and such with various state fire marshals about permitting model rocketry products to be sold in their jurisdictions AND how a number of them had no objection to model rockets being sold as long as a "fee" or "permit" was paid to them to allow sales of model rockets in their communities. .....and we are not even talking about CA! Now of course G. Harry declined on every case, but this just goes to show you how some state fire marshal's weren't above allowing "fireworks" as long as they got a little "green" on the side.

I have something I'll send you sometime Jerry. Its a circa 1960 NAR Safety Code for Model Rockets. In this safety code NAR members are allowed(by the NAR) to make your own rocket motors.

terry dean
nar 16158

Just Jerry

I cut out the part where you say HPR needs more regulation than MR. FAA does that just fine with no added layers needed.

I do not need you to send me the 1960 code suggesting safe propellant mixing techniques. I have it.

I left in the rest because I essentially agree with all of that. Given we obviously agree on more than we disagree on, and given our position is consistent with safety and even the NAR lawsuit position, why can't common sense get traction?

There seems to be a tactical disconnect somewhere.

Jerry

shockwaveriderz

unfortunately Pandora's Box concerning model rocketry regulation was opened a long time ago(in a galaxy far,far away I might add) and its not ever going to be put back in.

Isn't there some old sage saying about its really easy to make regulations; but hard as hell to get rid of one........

But I will continue to call for Deregulation in Model Rocketry while trying to get the NAR to embrace some form of AR (Research, whatever) within the NAR itself. Maybe we can scare up another NAR Blue Ribbon Commission......... I mean if its good enough for the TRA, why not the NAR too?

terry dean
nar 16158

Steve_Shannon

Terry,
Have you ever considered running for a trustee position with NAR?

shockwaveriderz

Here's a typical example.

NFPA 41-L was passed in 67-68 became NFPA 112 in 1976 .

In the state of KY, NFPA 1122 was never adopted as a statewide fir code until 2007, approximately 40 years after its inception. And this adoption of NFPA 1122 wasn't even known to the Ky State Fire Marshal, until I pointed it out to him. It was adopted throug what I call "sneak code" in NFPA 1 which was adopted by the State of KY in 2007.

J. Patrick Miller, the former NAR Prez before Bunny told me that he was the person responsible for placing that "code" into NFPA 1. Why I asked him? The response, was, "because the state fire marshal's weren't doing it fast enough to suit the NAR ". I might add that J. Patrick Miller, since his steeping down to allow Bunny to assume the NAR Prezzy, (Bunny was VP under Mr. Miller)he has been the NAR's NFPA respresentative on the NFPA PYRO-AAA technical committee.

So, NFPA 1122 stood un-adopted in the State of Kentucky for 40 years, but Model Rockets nevertheless were bought and sold through the state. In Fact, In KY, they were actually selling modle rocket products LEGALLY before NFPA 41-L even existed! In 1981, the State of Kentucky legislature passed an EXEMPTION from the fireworks code for Model Rockets.
When the NFPA 1122 was covertly adopted in 2007, the 1981 MODEL ROCKET EXEMPTION had been in effect for 26 years. Somebody please tell me why NFPA 1122 was needed in this case? I don't think a valid case can be made.


Kentucky is not the only State where this occurred. There are several States that all fit the same pattern:

NFPA 1122 was around for many moons; state fire marshal's saw no need to adopt it on a state wide basis; so the NAR did these state fire marshal's a favor by getting the code placed into another NFPA Book of Regulation, that they knew they would adopt.

So in most cases, the NFPA codes are adopted by default. Because the NFPA knows what is best.


you may ask: well why are you a NAR member if you disagree with your own organization's policies? Well, I still believe that I can help chnage policy by being a member than by not being one. Because I do support most other NAR policies. As a member I feel that I have the right to disagree with my leadership.



terry dean
nar 16158

Steve_Shannon

It's more than just a right; it's a responsibility.

jsdemar

Now back to G. Harry....

I met him at NARAM-39 in Tucson, not long before he passed away. He always greeted someone with "Nice to see you again!", just in case it wasn't the first time. I'll always picture him in a flight suit, which he seemed to wear at all launches, long after it was "fashionable".

Our club here in Las Cruces has monthly modroc launches in the general location where Stine used to fly rockets in the early days. The site was formerly an air strip near town but is now along I-10 within the city limits and belongs to New Mexico State University. I live about 3 miles from there.
Here are some photos from the launch there, earlier this month:
http://photos.thrustgear.c.../thumbnails.php?album=15

G. Harry also wrote some fiction. I've read a couple of them, including "Shuttle Down", which includes an emergency shuttle landing on Easter Island, if I remember correctly.

-John

19KILO

Thankyou Darrell for providing that great piece of rocket media, well done as usual. I am sure most of us have a great deal of respect for G. Harry Stine and what he has done for this hobby (understatement). I am not an "old rocketeer" like some here but I am always interested in hearing the history of our hobby's roots. NAR, Tripoli, or other, high or low power, his influence is worthy of our gratitude. R.I.P. G. Harry Stine.