LETHBRIDGE, Alberta CAN — The Canadian Association of Rocketry’s Motor Certification Committee kicked off the 2008 flying season in a marathon certification session that ran for 5 consecutive days in April. More than 150 HPR motors, totaling over 350,000 Newton seconds of impulse were fired.

This was the first joint Pro-X® and AMW certification session with 47 new motors certified from G to full O. "This is the single largest certification matrix we have ever undertaken in one session," according to CAR MC² Chair Max Baines. "Preparing, firing, reloading and reviewing the data from this many motors and types in one session required a significant amount of planning and effort," said Baines.

Screen capture of the initial Virtual Certification Program configuration being developed.

Motor firings were conducted at Cesaroni Technology’s Gormley, Ontario facility under CAR supervision, using state of the art equipment and NIST/NRC traceable calibration methods. The certification session was also a technology demonstration of the "Virtual Certification Program." The "Virtual Certification Program" is a computer and web-based system designed to improve the test certification process while providing better access for certification organization members to test data, video and reports.

The system consists of a primary DataCAD® data acquisition computer and range video cameras that are networked to an internal server. The server receives test data and video for recording and is connected to the local area network as well as the Internet. Internal and external users can login via LAN, VPN or their HTTP browsers to witness preparation, testing and data in real time. Dial-in conferencing calls are also supported.

CAR motor certification standards require two motor committee members be present for motor certification tests. Ontario currently has one active member and the MC² Committee Chair is in Alberta, almost 2000 miles away. "This presents considerable logistics, time, cost and personnel issues for both CAR and the manufacturers, especially with certification sessions of this scale," Baines said. By using this approach, the local CAR MC² representative can be on site for tests, while the committee can witness testing in real time at another location.

CAR MC² have been participating in the evaluation of the new system. Anthony Cesaroni, President and CEO of Cesaroni Technology stated, "When we first proposed the 'Virtual Certification Program' idea, it sparked a lot of interest. It’s basically taking advantage of current technology and provides a seamless and accessible test protocol, while improving accuracy, quality and efficiency that benefits the sport rocketry community as a whole. I actually watched the certification session from my Sarasota office in Florida while talking to CAR and CTI personnel in the firing room in Gormley, Ontario in real time."

"I’d like to thank everyone at CAR, CTI and AMW for all the effort that made this possible. We’re planning on demonstrating this to NAR and TRA for their consideration in the very near future," Cesaroni continued. "It could greatly simplify reciprocity for all three rocketry organizations and even make joint certification sessions possible."

Motors certified in this session will start to publish next week as they are released by CAR. More certification sessions are planned in the near future as the AMW/Pro-X line continues to expand. CSFM and international approvals are in process.

Note: Eventually, users will be able to download AVIs/MPEGs of the motors with the certification data as well. New higher resolution cameras are being installed this week to support this concept.

Website: http://www.canadianrocketry.org/

Pro-X® and DataCAD® are registered trademarks of Cesaroni Technology Incorporated in Canada.

04-18-2008 06:00 PM  #1
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session All I can say is "WOW!".

04-18-2008 06:07 PM  #2
BradWall New Member   Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 1	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Wow and double wow. Can't wait to see the list of motors. Great to see this type of new technology being used. It has potential to be a valuable tools for all 3 organizations. Thank you to Max, Anthony, the CAR MCC, CTI, AMW, and others involved. Keep up the good work. Brad Wall CAR Prairies and Northern Region Representative S582 L3 RI3 SAROS #12 Club Secretary TRA 10559 L2

04-18-2008 06:37 PM  #3
Steve_Shannon Will fly beer for rockets   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1657	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session That is impressive. It might be just what the doctor ordered for getting certs done more timely in the states also.

04-18-2008 07:40 PM  #4
vintagevinni New Member   Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 1	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Chalk another one up for CAR and CTI!! Thanks Max and Anthony!

04-18-2008 10:53 PM  #5
Lawndartman Certified Level One   Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 11	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session That graph is a 150MM-4G-White Thunder. Total Impulse 9243.30 lbs. 5.1 sec Average thrust 1804.97 lbs. Max. Thrust 2227.95 lbs A FULL "O" I want to be the first on my block to have one!

04-18-2008 10:55 PM  #6
oddboy10 Certified Level One   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 27	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session I cant wati to fly the new G & H motors. I hope there is a skidmark G or H. if any one knows anything let me know Jordan

04-18-2008 11:06 PM  #7
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session The interesting aspect is the resources thrown at consumer motors that cannot justify the cost of sending a CEO home, and a cert authority across the country. Last I checked, those expenses were a fraction of ONE motor firing cost and 450 motors were fired. Hmmm. The technology is quite cool indeed. Jerry

04-19-2008 09:53 AM  #8
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: The interesting aspect is the resources thrown at consumer motors that cannot justify the cost of sending a CEO home, and a cert authority across the country. Last I checked, those expenses were a fraction of ONE motor firing cost and 450 motors were fired. That's not the "interesting aspect". The cool technology and the unprecedented number of consumer motor certs is. For a real business, costs include other things than just raw materials. Some people's time is worth far more than a few rocket motors (the typical session for which the technology was developed). We can also assume this will be used for CTI customers outside the hobby rocketry 'industry'. Jerry, you'll have to work harder than that to dream up a conspiracy to deflect the attention back to you. -John DeMar

04-19-2008 10:07 AM  #9
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: The interesting aspect is the resources thrown at consumer motors that cannot justify the cost of sending a CEO home, and a cert authority across the country. Last I checked, those expenses were a fraction of ONE motor firing cost and 450 motors were fired. Hmmm. The technology is quite cool indeed. Jerry Sarasota is my primary home Jerry. We had meetings at SOCOM HQ here to attend and besides, it was too cold up there that week. The south has thinned my blood. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-19-2008 10:15 AM  #10
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: That's not the "interesting aspect". The cool technology and the unprecedented number of consumer motor certs is. For a real business, costs include other things than just raw materials. Some people's time is worth far more than a few rocket motors (the typical session for which the technology was developed). We can also assume this will be used for CTI customers outside the hobby rocketry 'industry'. Jerry, you'll have to work harder than that to dream up a conspiracy to deflect the attention back to you. -John DeMar It seems I have you for that. Full time. I am interested to see the tests occur at the vendor site. That is a wonderful improvement. It is really exciting to see so many certs. I hope he is able to increase the size of the market as well so more than a couple of copies of each type per year are burned. I didn't see any mention of any other brands of motors certified at the same time at CTI facilities, but an example or two of that would go a long way to give it more a sense of CAR being in charge more than CTI. Anthony is one guy who has technical advancement and the industry at heart as his motivation. He is generally not the cause of drama and pain. That is something our industry sorely needs to avoid now. You don't need to try so hard to make it all about me, for me. The motor lineage is direct back to me. Just compare the "Kosdon" reloadable announcement in HPR to the version in the publication from San Diego from which they lifted it. That will seal the deal. Then forward to when/how those very motors were certified. So much drama. It is refreshing to see motor certifications with little to no drama, leaving time and energy for something radical. Technology advancements and collaboration on a technical basis, and open testing data releases. I don't know if I can handle it! But let's see. Just Jerry

04-19-2008 10:35 AM  #11
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: I didn't see any mention of any other brands of motors certified at the same time at CTI facilities, but an example or two of that would go a long way to give it more a sense of CAR being in charge more than CTI. http://www.canadianrocketry.org/motor_index.php Quote: The motor lineage is direct back to me. Here we go again. "All your base are belong to us". http://www.rocketryplanet....php?p=86722&postcount=15

04-19-2008 10:26 PM  #12
Rocketthon TRA L3 TMT   Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session If I read the chart correctly the motor registers 8.3% P (I think) and will not be certified under the current USA NAR/TRA guidelines. The motor would have to be flown as a research only motor. Not trying to dump cold water on anything, I like seeing this as much as the next one, but we do still have rules to consider. Rick

04-19-2008 11:07 PM  #13
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Sarasota is my primary home Jerry. We had meetings at SOCOM HQ here to attend and besides, it was too cold up there that week. The south has thinned my blood. Anthony J. Cesaroni Stop drinking Margaritas!! Let the generals launch the rockets! Jerry P.S. Moon me!

04-19-2008 11:09 PM  #14
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Here we go again. "All your base are belong to us". You being my lap dog aside, I did cite my sources re HPR and San Diego newsletter source (which was raised in court under oath). Merely Jerry

04-20-2008 12:18 AM  #15
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: We had meetings at SOCOM HQ here Anthony J. Cesaroni Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace Well . . . did you vcc them in the LIVE motor test video feeds? Hmmm? Jerry

04-20-2008 12:03 PM  #16
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: If I read the chart correctly the motor registers 8.3% P (I think) and will not be certified under the current USA NAR/TRA guidelines. The motor would have to be flown as a research only motor. Not trying to dump cold water on anything, I like seeing this as much as the next one, but we do still have rules to consider. It's 0.38%P. If the average of the two motor firing is in the "O" range, and the standard deviation is no more than 6.7% of the mean, then it's a certified O motor. Also, the average thrust of each more has to be within 20% of the mean average thrust of both motors. Those are the NFPA1125 rules. The screen capture accompanying the press release has some "journalistic discrepancies" with the dates on the data window, video window, and video control window, but I won't mention those. -John DeMar

04-20-2008 03:53 PM  #17
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: That graph is a 150MM-4G-White Thunder. Total Impulse 9243.30 lbs. 5.1 sec Average thrust 1804.97 lbs. Max. Thrust 2227.95 lbs A FULL "O" I want to be the first on my block to have one! 4G is actually a misnomer. Although the 150’s come in various case lengths using modular extensions, they are all now single grain. They use the same core geometry as our larger commercial/military motors. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-20-2008 03:56 PM  #18
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: The screen capture accompanying the press release has some "journalistic discrepancies" with the dates on the data window, video window, and video control window, but I won't mention those. -John DeMar Ignore it. The date discrepancies have to do with a drive that crashed earlier on the video server in Gormley. A brand new unit at that. The date on the system wasn’t re-set when the system was reconfigured for a day or two after. They were busy with other priorities. The stand shows 2006 and the range shows 2006 and 2008 the later being the play back and frame grab date after the re-set. Everything else is Thursday but the times and date were still wrong. We’re still working the bugs out. The single grain 150 in a full O didn’t exist in 2006. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-20-2008 07:59 PM  #19
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: 4G is actually a misnomer. Although the 150’s come in various case lengths using modular extensions, they are all now single grain. They use the same core geometry as our larger commercial/military motors. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto What specific geometry is that?

04-20-2008 08:33 PM  #20
contrailrockets Certified Level One   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 27	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Ignore it. The date discrepancies have to do with a drive that crashed earlier on the video server in Gormley. A brand new unit at that. The date on the system wasn’t re-set when the system was reconfigured for a day or two after. They were busy with other priorities. The stand shows 2006 and the range shows 2006 and 2008 the later being the play back and frame grab date after the re-set. Everything else is Thursday but the times and date were still wrong. We’re still working the bugs out. The single grain 150 in a full O didn’t exist in 2006. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto Are the Pro-150 Motors a: 150mm True 6 Inch/152mm Something else? Tom

04-20-2008 10:16 PM  #21
Rocketthon TRA L3 TMT   Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Are the Pro-150 Motors a: 150mm True 6 Inch/152mm Something else? Tom A very robust 162MM. Rick

04-20-2008 11:14 PM  #22
contrailrockets Certified Level One   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 27	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: A very robust 162MM. Rick Why the 150 then? And not a 162? What are the prices for Hardware and Reload for the 3g and 4g motors? Are they shippable? If so what restrictions are imposed?

04-20-2008 11:27 PM  #23
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Why the 150 then? And not a 162? What are the prices for Hardware and Reload for the 3g and 4g motors? Are they shippable? If so what restrictions are imposed? Is there a website for any of this? I seem to have had one for decades or so. Just Jerry

04-20-2008 11:37 PM  #24
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 481	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Is there a website for any of this? I seem to have had one for decades or so. Just Jerry http://www.pro38.com/products/pro150/pro150.php# The O5100 is the 3G and the 4G is listed as "coming soon"

04-20-2008 11:39 PM  #25
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 481	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: A very robust 162MM. Rick To further Rick's answer: http://www.pro38.com/pdfs/Pro150_dimensions.pdf -Aaron

04-21-2008 09:28 AM  #26
V-2 New Member   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 1	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Congrats to CTI and CAR! We all benefit from this kind of growth.

04-21-2008 09:34 AM  #27
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: What specific geometry is that? Truncated finocyl would probably be the best description. Extrusion cast. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-21-2008 09:36 AM  #28
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Why the 150 then? And not a 162? What are the prices for Hardware and Reload for the 3g and 4g motors? Are they shippable? If so what restrictions are imposed? 150 is a nominal commercial designation that refers to the propellant cartridge OD. The commercial customers spec out the case configuration depending on the application. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-21-2008 10:05 AM  #29
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 569	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Truncated finocyl would probably be the best description. Extrusion cast. The cruise missile boost movies are cool. So this uses the thermoset fuel technique for near continuous flow? Or just extruded from batch to liner to make it flow? I am curious these days about alternate hybrid geometries to get higher fuel flow with limited regression rates. Yes I know about rod in tube, star in star, wagon wheel. Any other suggestions? You know, besides a liquid fuel. Not afraid to ask questions when a technically competent person is in the house. This link http://www.pro38.com/products/pro150/pro150.php# has date specific references from 2005. Jerry

04-21-2008 04:51 PM  #30
Anthony Cesaroni Certifiable   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 50	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: I am curious these days about alternate hybrid geometries to get higher fuel flow with limited regression rates. Yes I know about rod in tube, star in star, wagon wheel. Any other suggestions? You know, besides a liquid fuel. Jerry If you were going to design a high performance hybrid why would you use a fuel with a limited regression rate or even high regression rate fuel that couldn’t support a high critical flux? The same holds true for reverse and all solid hybrids. Off topic BTW. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

04-21-2008 06:30 PM  #31
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Off topic BTW. I'll take responsibility for being "part of the problem". So, when will we see a list of the newly certified reloads, and info about the cross-compatible combinations??? -John DeMar

04-26-2008 11:57 AM  #32
Dipstick Canuck   Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 6	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Its been a week...these pins and needles are killing me Hopefully we're close to seeing the list of certifications. Bruce

04-26-2008 06:29 PM  #33
Dwatkins Certified Level One   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 22	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Probably on the same day we get Judge Walton's Ruling

04-26-2008 06:35 PM  #34
Dipstick Canuck   Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 6	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Probably on the same day we get Judge Walton's Ruling I won't let it go that long...I live in the same city as the motor cert committee chairman

04-27-2008 01:27 AM  #35
Dipstick Canuck   Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 6	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Woohoo, here's one... http://pro38.com/news.php

04-27-2008 12:21 PM  #36
Steve_Shannon Will fly beer for rockets   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1657	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Will CTI have some of these loads available at RocLake 10?

04-28-2008 07:29 AM  #37
oddboy10 Certified Level One   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 27	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Wouldn't the new G115-13A white thunder motor be considered HPR because it is over 80N's avrage

04-28-2008 09:04 AM  #38
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293	Re: CAR motor committee completes marathon certification session Quote: Wouldn't the new G115-13A white thunder motor be considered HPR because it is over 80N's avrage Yes. >80N avg thrust OR >62.5g propellant.

04-28-2008 10:28 AM  #39
Dipstick Canuck   Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 6