AMW/Pro-X, the industry's largest manufacturer of high power rocketry motors and reloads, has just received certification on 17 new reloads for original AMW 54mm hardware.

We have been busy in the breeding room to help you bring out the animal in your flight. 

AMW/Pro-X's new K1720 Scalded Tiger.

MORE ON THE STORY:
• AMW/Pro-X's new J1365 Scalded Tiger.

We found Black Bear wandering the forests in Canada and harnessed his power into six new Black Bear reloads, and we went the extra mile to certify these with the graphite nozzle and with the disposable nozzle.

The Scalded Tiger is a mean ornery cat. We have initially introduced her in two casing sizes: the 54-1050 is a J1365 and the 54-1400 comes in at K1720. She is fast with a 0.7 second burn time.

Wild Wolf brings the usual large volume of white smoke and plenty of power to your flight. Tamed Tiger on the other hand has lower smoke as most of the cat's do. The familiar Red Rhino led the charge from the cages.

The new nozzle carrier used with some of the AMW/Pro-X reloads allows optimization of design, far better than any other snap ring style case.

These will expand the reloads available for AMW hardware, adding to the already certified classic reloads that will continue to be produced.

This makes AMW hardware the most sought after on the market in both the commercial and research community.

The flier now has 12 different propellants in 41 reloads to choose and more are in process. And that's just in 54mm!

AMW/Pro-X will bring reloads for AMW hardware into California as well as overseas markets soon. These and the many new certifications that will come in the following months demonstrate our continued support of the high power rocket flier.

05-15-2008 09:58 PM  #1
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Casing Motor designation 1050 932J1365-P Glad to see them using the ILP method nomenclature, now decades old. http://v-serv.com/usr/safety.htm Just Jerry

05-15-2008 11:28 PM  #2
beharri Certified Level Two   Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 59	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware I am wondering what the new nozzle carrier is, i.e., how is it different the the current nozzles? I just went to AMW website and its not updated yet. Waiting for that and get my mits on some reloads.

05-15-2008 11:41 PM  #3
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware A ring that centers a phenolic nozzle in the aluminum case, probably aluminum itself. Have used them for a long time. My question is why not certify all the motors as long delay rather than plugged so non NAR/TRA/CAR launches could modify them at will and electronics users could ignore them, but have smoke? Just Jerry

05-16-2008 12:13 AM  #4
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 358	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: A ring that centers a phenolic nozzle in the aluminum case, probably aluminum itself. Have used them for a long time. My question is why not certify all the motors as long delay rather than plugged so non NAR/TRA/CAR launches could modify them at will and electronics users could ignore them, but have smoke? It would require a new forward closure for existing AMW case owners. 54mm AMW motors are all plugged. -John D.

05-16-2008 12:21 AM  #5
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: It would require a new forward closure for existing AMW case owners. 54mm AMW motors are all plugged. -John D. Note it required a new nozzle centering ring anyway and all new testing of hundreds of samples. Just saying. Just Jerry

05-16-2008 07:15 AM  #6
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Am I reading that right? The chamber pressure is only about 160 psi? Just Jerry

05-16-2008 07:52 AM  #7
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware I was curious re the pressure too. The scalded tiger is a Vmax based motor, wonder if that is why?

05-16-2008 08:14 AM  #8
Anthony Cesaroni Certified Ferrocene Free.   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 103	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Am I reading that right? The chamber pressure is only about 160 psi? Just Jerry The thrust trace is blue. The Pc (purple) and event voltage (orange) traces are not displayed on that particular graph although the axis are by default. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

05-16-2008 08:30 AM  #9
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3077	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Thanks for the clarification--reminds me that I shouldn't try to think this early in the morning...

05-16-2008 09:17 AM  #10
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware My brain was not fully installed yet before my last comment, but the action time chamber pressure is 18.85 psi (declared burnout). Is that the government 10% level, the NAR 5% level or some other arbitrary basis? More to the point what is the "average chamber pressure" of the motor anyway? I get the impression these may be the highest operating pressure motors ever certified. Just Jerry

05-16-2008 11:17 AM  #11
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 358	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: My brain was not fully installed yet before my last comment, but the action time chamber pressure is 18.85 psi (declared burnout). Is that the government 10% level, the NAR 5% level or some other arbitrary basis? More to the point what is the "average chamber pressure" of the motor anyway? I get the impression these may be the highest operating pressure motors ever certified. Just Jerry I think Anthony just said that the graph does not show chamber pressure, just the extra axes were left on the graph. It also appears that the 5% of peak thrust point is labeled as "TE". -John

05-16-2008 05:04 PM  #12
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: I am wondering what the new nozzle carrier is, i.e., how is it different the the current nozzles? I just went to AMW website and its not updated yet. Waiting for that and get my mits on some reloads. The "other" forum had a post on this... http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=549488&postcount=16

05-16-2008 09:56 PM  #13
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: The "other" forum had a post on this... http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=549488&postcount=16 That said . . . 1. There's the aluminum part I referred to. 2. Is the pellet BKNO3? I simply ask. 3. It seems the new phenolic is same as the old phenolic. 4. Who made that friggin propellant? 5. What other forum? Just Jerry

05-16-2008 10:12 PM  #14
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: 2. Is the pellet BKNO3? I simply ask. I was under the impression that it was black powder. I know Anthony has answered this question before but I just don't recall it well enough to be certain of anything.

05-16-2008 10:53 PM  #15
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: I was under the impression that it was black powder. I know Anthony has answered this question before but I just don't recall it well enough to be certain of anything. When I asked him directly he punted. When he was forthcoming otherwise. That indicates he is shading or has a proprietary formula. Wanna bet? Just Jerry

05-17-2008 12:52 AM  #16
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: When I asked him directly he punted. When he was forthcoming otherwise. That indicates he is shading or has a proprietary formula. Wanna bet? Just Jerry http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=134117&postcount=10 http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=134512&postcount=23 In these posts he clearly states it is BP and that he uses BKNO3 but that reference is only when he is talking about large military engines. I'm not saying you are wrong - but I am saying he has been consistent in the past with his statements that I have seen.

05-17-2008 10:20 AM  #17
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1320	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=134117&postcount=10 http://www.rocketryforum.c...hp?p=134512&postcount=23 In these posts he clearly states it is BP and that he uses BKNO3 but that reference is only when he is talking about large military engines. I'm not saying you are wrong - but I am saying he has been consistent in the past with his statements that I have seen. Thanks for the update (from the "other" forum no less). I must have asked him in chat on ROL perhaps 2 years ago? Being simple BP pellets, other vendors could update their reloads to include that feature if they are so motivated (approvals and packaging). I doubt CTI would be incented to sell the BPP separately to "consumer field upgrade" other vendors' reloads. But you never know. Just Jerry

05-17-2008 10:41 AM  #18
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Thanks for the update (from the "other" forum no less). I must have asked him in chat on ROL perhaps 2 years ago? Being simple BP pellets, other vendors could update their reloads to include that feature if they are so motivated (approvals and packaging). I doubt CTI would be incented to sell the BPP separately to "consumer field upgrade" other vendors' reloads. But you never know. Just Jerry There may be some secret sauce still - it wasn't clear to me that the pellets were composed of only BP and nothing added. I think that's what he was saying but it wasn't stated in exactly that way. One interesting thing he said was that they were considered PART OF THE PROPELLANT and not an igniter. That might require a bit of paperwork on the part of anyone else trying to use this method commercially. I know lots of folks who are making pyrodex igniters for themselves - they seem to work.

05-17-2008 05:13 PM  #19
Anthony Cesaroni Certified Ferrocene Free.   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 103	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: There may be some secret sauce still - it wasn't clear to me that the pellets were composed of only BP and nothing added. I think that's what he was saying but it wasn't stated in exactly that way. One interesting thing he said was that they were considered PART OF THE PROPELLANT and not an igniter. That might require a bit of paperwork on the part of anyone else trying to use this method commercially. I know lots of folks who are making pyrodex igniters for themselves - they seem to work. They’re a BP, KSI pressed straight bill of goods made in house. No secret sauce. Estes does it the same way. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

05-18-2008 12:14 AM  #20
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: They’re a BP, KSI pressed straight bill of goods made in house. No secret sauce. Estes does it the same way. Thanks for the confirmation. I feel silly asking but what does KSI mean?

05-18-2008 01:06 AM  #21
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 358	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Thanks for the confirmation. I feel silly asking but what does KSI mean? 1 KSI = 1000 PSI Use the force! (Or Google )

05-18-2008 02:47 PM  #22
Anthony Cesaroni Certified Ferrocene Free.   Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 103	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: 1 KSI = 1000 PSI Use the force! (Or Google ) …or multiples thereof. Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/ (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

05-18-2008 08:11 PM  #23
StuBarrett Certified Level Eleven   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 149	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Anthony, this looks like a great update on an already great product. One question, I sure would like to be able to purchase a couple of nozzle carriers and a bunch of phenolic nozzles. I hope that you will make these parts available ala-cart. Stu

05-19-2008 09:23 AM  #24
beharri Certified Level Two   Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 59	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Why the switch to nozzle carrier and one time use phenolic nozzles instead of muti-use graphite nozzles? What are the pro and cons to each type of nozzle? TIA Bruce

05-19-2008 09:50 AM  #25
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 358	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Why the switch to nozzle carrier and one time use phenolic nozzles instead of muti-use graphite nozzles? What are the pro and cons to each type of nozzle? The performance of each type of reload for the same case is optimized by choosing the nozzle throat diameter per propellant type. An expendable nozzle is cheaper than requiring the customer to buy several graphite nozzles per case. You get a new nozzle per reload without worrying about general wear or unexpected damage to the graphite nozzle. The nozzle carrier reduces the amount of nozzle material, lowering the cost of the expendable nozzle. However, the design of the grain geometry must allow for nozzle throat erosion in the one-time-use nozzle. Although there is some additional insulating properties of the molded nozzle (lower conductivity and some ablative cooling), there's another surface interface to seal from leakage. The cost of the mold for the expendable nozzle is a large investment, only justified for larger quantities. Graphite nozzles are easy to machine for less cost in smaller quantities. -John DeMar

05-19-2008 11:00 AM  #26
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Why the switch to nozzle carrier and one time use phenolic nozzles instead of muti-use graphite nozzles? What are the pro and cons to each type of nozzle? TIA Bruce My thought is that it allows them to use the same nozzles in both CTI and Animal cases. The existing graphite nozzles are still used with the existing Animal reloads that predate the merging of the propellant lines. As jsdemar pointed out phenolic single use nozzles allow for more variation in reload characteristics than a single graphite nozzle would - and the expense of having multiple nozzles could be pretty high depending on the number of nozzle geometries desired per case. I wonder what if any new loads will be produced for the Animal cases using the graphite nozzles?

05-19-2008 12:19 PM  #27
jsdemar NAR/TRA L3   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 358	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: I wonder what if any new loads will be produced for the Animal cases using the graphite nozzles? Yes, some of the new certs were with the existing AMW graphite nozzles.

05-19-2008 12:46 PM  #28
beharri Certified Level Two   Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 59	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Thanks John. Very clear to me now. I had always thought plastic nozzles were cheap and inferior to graphite. I failed to take the need for different throat diameters into consideration. My wife would kill me if I store a ton of graphite nozzles--the rockets are taking up too much space, as she see it now.

05-19-2008 09:31 PM  #29
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: My wife would kill me if I store a ton of graphite nozzles--the rockets are taking up too much space, as she see it now. Convince her of how lucky she is that you just store them and not make them.

05-19-2008 09:48 PM  #30
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3723	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: Thanks John. Very clear to me now. I had always thought plastic nozzles were cheap and inferior to graphite. I failed to take the need for different throat diameters into consideration. My wife would kill me if I store a ton of graphite nozzles--the rockets are taking up too much space, as she see it now. Tell her that as you retire the rockets she can use them for planters...

05-21-2008 11:18 AM  #31
AZ_Ron Certified Level One   Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 16	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware My wife and I can both attest that Darrell's statement rings truer than most people can even imagine!!!! R Quote: Convince her of how lucky she is that you just store them and not make them.

05-21-2008 12:06 PM  #32
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4157	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware Quote: My wife and I can both attest that Darrell's statement rings truer than most people can even imagine!!!! Now there is a guy who knows what it is I speak about! Graphite Ron! I understand oil or water can go a long way to reduce the dust...

05-21-2008 01:43 PM  #33
AZ_Ron Certified Level One   Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 16	Re: CAR certifies 17 AMW/Pro-X reloads for AMW 54mm hardware My experience is that any kind of fluid used to contain the mess makes for serious mud. A good dust collection system and keeping the lathe speed down does wonders. When I first started, I made a hell of a mess... After several years, I've got it down pretty well. There's a mess in the immediate area, but I don't have fine graphite dust 15' feet away on everything else... Ron