Tripoli Mid-Ohio's Michael Farms location is off limits now.

URBANA, Ohio USA — Tripoli Mid-Ohio is just a day away from their biggest launch of the year, their Memorial Day Weekend launch, only to find out that their field has been pulled out from under their feet like a cheap rug. The culprits? Agricultural inspectors.

According to the Tripoli Mid-Ohio website, Prefect Mark Mazzon was just told yesterday that the club could not use the field they have been using previously, Michael Farms.  The reason given was that the farm had just underwent an inspection by an unnamed government agency that oversees vegetable crops, and the inspectors informed the owner that rocket activities could not continue in the fields where crops were being grown for human consumption.

"The Michael Farms just underwent an inspection from some government agency that deals with the vegetables that are grown there," Mazzon stated, "and Mr. Michael was informed that the rocket activity could not continue in the fields with crops grown for human consumption." As a result, the Memorial Day Weekend launch for Tripoli Mid-Ohio has been canceled, and the group will have to find another field to launch their rockets from in the future.

Concerns over perchlorate contamination, a toxic ingredient of solid rocket fuel, have been in the news this year, with the EPA set to weigh in, setting perchlorate standards for the nation.  Various state's agencies and water suppliers across the country have been expecting a standard for several years because perchlorate has been found in the water supplies of at least 11 million people. Last year, California, impatient with the EPA's indecision, decided to set its own standard.

But even EPA appears to be backpedaling on the subject, where Tuesday a top agency official told a Senate committee that there was "a distinct possibility" that the agency would not set limits on the amount of perchlorate that is allowable in drinking water.  The EPA's assistant administrator for water, Benjamin H. Grumbles, said EPA would decide by the end of the year whether or not to regulate perchlorate levels. Yet that doesn't eliminate the possibility of state-sponsored actions "cropping" up in other parts of the country similar to what Tripoli Mid-Ohio has just experienced.

Website: http://www.tripolimidohio.org/

05-23-2008 12:43 AM  #1
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 2711	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" This is very bad news for those of us who fly from farm fields. Of course if they are only concerned about perchlorate - then you should offer to do a Sugar only research day.

05-23-2008 08:19 AM  #2
fox_racing_guy Certified Level Two   Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 122	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Well there go's my L3 attempt for the 4th time. I'm glad I got the e-mail from Mark last night just before I was going to start assembling my motors for the weekend. I guess my next move will be to Tripoli Pittsburgh, they are the only half close place that has a 10,000'+ waiver that I need. Hopefully TMO can find another field close by that doesn't grow crops for human consumption.

05-23-2008 08:58 AM  #3
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 2711	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Anyone who is willing to drive a long way could also come to Orangeburg SC for the NSL 2008 event this weekend. I realize it is a L-O-N-G way - but perhaps some people were in between the two events. Does this warrant a lawsuit? Is there any scientific evidence that this causes contamination in the crops?

05-23-2008 09:06 AM  #4
kgholloway APCP-4E   Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 12	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" This is very disturbing, especially as I know of no government agency with the authority to inspect and issue orders to land owners as to what crops and activities can legally co-exist on private land. I don't believe even the FDA can inspect crops before they have been harvested. Does anyone know of a government agency with such powers to determine land usage? I'd really like to question them on their ruling in this case since the EPA has not yet issued guidelines for Perchlorates.

05-23-2008 09:47 AM  #5
aerostadt Certified Level Two   Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 38	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" This is an issue that is likely to come up again. It is my understanding that the Aerojet plant in Sacramento has had this issue brought up and it has been mentioned on local TV for Utah for drinking water. Bob

05-23-2008 09:48 AM  #6
jderimig Certified Level Two   Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 76	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" I didn't know there were any perchlorates left in the exhaust of a rocket motor. You learn something new everyday. I guess gasoline and diesel fuel in your vegetables can't be good for you either. That undefined state ag agency must be pretty smart to connect the dots between rocket launches and perchlorates... There is something fishy about this.

05-23-2008 10:47 AM  #7
tmacklin Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 58	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Great! Another member of the federal alphabet soup boys has crashed the party. As if the BATFE, the CPSC, the HSE and the NFPA weren't enough. I can't wait until Algore and his Gorons figure out that blackpowder motors that the Boys Scouts, uh..... never mind.

05-23-2008 11:51 AM  #8
shockwaveriderz Model Rocket Historian   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 35	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" I predict that this will increasingly be one of the major reasons put forth to limit and or ban APCP propellants. Adding poisonous and other toxic chemicals to the mix to produce those nice colored flames will be another will be another rationale for local,state and fedral EPA's to take a harder look at APCP propellant use. The old adage, 'I Love the smell of APCP in the morning" may result in your death. " I guess we need to start looking for "greener" propellants and I don't mean Barium Chloride. I recently read a study about the use of "coloring" chemicals like barium chloride, strontium nitrate and copper chloride,etc in indoor pyrotechnic displays, as "color" is a big thing with pyrotechnics, and the chemical particulate left in the air and resulting residue was scary. I certainly would not want to be inhaling the stuff! I wonder how "green" black powder and its residues are? anybody know? terry dean

05-23-2008 12:06 PM  #9
Steve_Shannon When in doubt, ask Keenan   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1964	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I wonder how "green" black powder and its residues are? anybody know? terry dean All of the people who were exposed to it in the War Between the States are dead, therefore it must be dangerous.

05-23-2008 12:26 PM  #10
tmacklin Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 58	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I predict that this will increasingly be one of the major reasons put forth to limit and or ban APCP propellants. Adding poisonous and other toxic chemicals to the mix to produce those nice colored flames will be another will be another rationale for local,state and fedral EPA's to take a harder look at APCP propellant use. The old adage, 'I Love the smell of APCP in the morning" may result in your death. " I guess we need to start looking for "greener" propellants and I don't mean Barium Chloride. I recently read a study about the use of "coloring" chemicals like barium chloride, strontium nitrate and copper chloride,etc in indoor pyrotechnic displays, as "color" is a big thing with pyrotechnics, and the chemical particulate left in the air and resulting residue was scary. I certainly would not want to be inhaling the stuff! I wonder how "green" black powder and its residues are? anybody know? terry dean It is my understanding that the primary gaseous product of the combustion of black powder is CO2, aka Carbon Dioxide, which the U.S. Supreme Court has designated as a greenhouse gas. Welcome to Hell.

05-23-2008 12:33 PM  #11
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 3165	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: It is my understanding that the primary gaseous product of the combustion of black powder is CO2, aka Carbon Dioxide, which the U.S. Supreme Court has designated as a greenhouse gas. Welcome to Hell. Since all living creatures expel carbon dioxide during respiration, that means we are all menaces to society as well. Kill the creatures!

05-23-2008 12:48 PM  #12
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 804	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: Since all living creatures expel carbon dioxide during respiration, that means we are all menaces to society as well. Kill the creatures! I think the green creatures (trees, grass, flowers, etc) would be amazed that they expel carbon dioxide and not oxygen.

05-23-2008 01:08 PM  #13
jderimig Certified Level Two   Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 76	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I think the green creatures (trees, grass, flowers, etc) would be amazed that they expel carbon dioxide and not oxygen. They expel the CO2 at night when all the IPCC scientists are sleeping....

05-23-2008 01:12 PM  #14
Chris at CLPL New Member   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 2	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I didn't know there were any perchlorates left in the exhaust of a rocket motor. You learn something new everyday. I guess gasoline and diesel fuel in your vegetables can't be good for you either. That undefined state ag agency must be pretty smart to connect the dots between rocket launches and perchlorates... There is something fishy about this. My understanding is that perchlorate contamination is a result of the manufacturing process. Bermite in Santa Clarita manufactured ordnance since the 1930's and were probably sloppy in their waste disposal. Considering the amount of APCP the shuttle burns, us hobbyists are insignificant. Hopefully our TRA/NAR leadership and the motor companies get involved in this quickly.

05-23-2008 01:29 PM  #15
Steve_Shannon When in doubt, ask Keenan   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1964	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" First, when in the dark, plants take in oxygen and give off CO2. Only during daylight does photosynthesis occur and CO2 is taken in (more than given off at night) and O2 is produced. Second, without greenhouse gases (methane, CO2, and others - even water vapor) the earth might be a very cold place. They absorb infrared and retain heat. In the right amounts that is a good thing. Like everything, when an excess exists, that can be bad. Are excess greenhouse gases responsible for global climate change? Is there global climate change? I am no expert so I am not going to try to argue either point. It really is too bad about Tripoli Mid-Ohio's launch site and I don't know the long term effects of APCP byproducts, but we need to learn more about them or we may suffer. For instance, perchlorates affect thyroid function. Should we be concerned? How many of us have read MSDS sheets on APCP? What protective equipment should we use (or is it necessary) when handling APCP, spent grains, etc. If we clean up with baby wipes that have mild solvents, are we increasing the amount that we absorb through skin contact? If we enjoy the smell of APCP, are we getting a higher concentration than we should? The best way to avoid over-reaction is to know and understand the facts.

05-23-2008 01:42 PM  #16
tmacklin Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 58	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: Since all living creatures expel carbon dioxide during respiration, that means we are all menaces to society as well. Kill the creatures! Us animals inhale air and extract the oxygen to burn our food, producing energy and expelling the CO2. (Some of us expell methane and hydrogen sulfide as well) The plants use the CO2 to produce the food we eat, directly, like fruits and veggies or indirectly, like cows and chickens. It's such a beautiful system I'm surprised Algore didn't think of it. So, to save the planet, PLANT TREES. Just leave a few wide open spaces alone.

05-23-2008 02:08 PM  #17
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 804	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Each Space Shuttle launch burns 2.2 million pounds of APCP and releases the byproducts of combustion onto Florida. Does this mean we can't eat Florida oranges any more? I would be interested if one of our chemist friends would speak on the byproducts of APCP combustion and what effects they have in the air and on the ground.

05-23-2008 02:22 PM  #18
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 3165	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I think the green creatures (trees, grass, flowers, etc) would be amazed that they expel carbon dioxide and not oxygen. A tree, grass or flowers are not creatures. A creature is fauna. Trees, grass, flowers are flora.

05-23-2008 02:32 PM  #19
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 3165	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" By the way, have you ever seen anyone who has been exposed to barium nitrate? You fliers who like green motors should be concerned. According to Wikipedia: "Like all soluble barium compounds, barium nitrate is toxic by ingestion or inhalation. Symptoms of poisoning include tightness of muscles (especially in the face and neck), vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, muscular tremors, anxiety, weakness, labored breathing, cardiac irregularity, and convulsions. Death may result from cardiac or respiratory failure, and usually occurs a few hours to a few days following exposure to the compound. Barium nitrate may also cause kidney damage. Solutions of sulfate salts such as Epsom salts or sodium sulfate may be given as first aid for barium poisoning, as they precipitate the barium as the insoluble (and non-toxic) barium sulfate. Inhalation may also cause irritation to the respiratory tract. While skin or eye contact is less harmful than ingestion or inhalation, it can still result in irritation, itching, redness, and pain."

05-23-2008 03:16 PM  #20
mrtidy New Member   Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 3	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" It seems like good idea to avoid group activities on fields growing crops for human consumption: people probably occasionally spill the cleaning chemicals and some people probably pee next to their car.

05-23-2008 03:29 PM  #21
Steve_Shannon When in doubt, ask Keenan   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1964	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" A quick search shows that the the main hazardous byproduct of APCP combustion is HCl and a lesser byproduct is aluminum oxide. Places where perchlorate pollution exists were contaminated by processing AP (defueling and refueling launch vehicles, rather than burning motors). Here is one link to an article by someone who obviously would prefer that no APCP solid rockets be fired. I am not taking his side, but it's important that we know what claims might be made. One scientist in Germany is working on an alternative to APCP to see if he can replace the AP with a compound that contains only nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen.

05-23-2008 03:33 PM  #22
tmacklin Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 58	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: Each Space Shuttle launch burns 2.2 million pounds of APCP and releases the byproducts of combustion onto Florida. Does this mean we can't eat Florida oranges any more? I would be interested if one of our chemist friends would speak on the byproducts of APCP combustion and what effects they have in the air and on the ground. According to this link, http://troop39rocketry.com...CDR_SLI_Report_Final.pdf (See page 42) one by-product is hydrogen chloride. I think the report meant to say "hydrogen chlorine", which is a gas that when combined with water forms hydrochloric acid, aka muriatic acid. I'm guessing that perchloric acid may also be formed, and other nasties as well? I do know that hyrochoric acid will clean excess mortar from brickwork and is easily neutralized by sodium bicarbonate, releasing CO2 and leaving sodium chloride, common table salt. Remember our fallen heros on this Memorial Day.

05-23-2008 07:31 PM  #23
Bexclent Certified Level Two   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 88	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: It seems like good idea to avoid group activities on fields growing crops for human consumption: people probably occasionally spill the cleaning chemicals and some people probably pee next to their car. Uh, and then where will we launch? And what cleaning chemicals? The baby ass wipes I use contain (OMFG!) benzyl alcohol and triglyceride!!! I think that makes soap!!! I guess we better keep the deer and the racoons out of the field too - not only do they pee on it - they actually defecate on it! How can we eat crops out of a field that has deer shit in it? Oh how gross! I can't eat meat or vegetables anymore! I better not breath either - I'm sure that is bad for me!

05-23-2008 10:41 PM  #24
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 2711	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: I think the green creatures (trees, grass, flowers, etc) would be amazed that they expel carbon dioxide and not oxygen. Critters doesn't usually mean flora... unless we're talking the green gal's on Start Trek...

05-24-2008 09:49 AM  #25
rcktnut NAR #76531-L2   Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 40	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Just what we need: another government agency jumping to conclusions without any evidence or facts that rocket motors add perchlorates to ground water, food supplies. Hell I prefer a bit of perclorate along with my nitrates, mercury, PCB's, dioxin, etc. I think they should bring back DDT, its, been about 40 years or so since I had a really good dose of that. As children (1960's) my freinds and I used to follow the city sprayers for blocks as they sprayed the trees for Dutch Elm Disease. AHH!! that sweet smell I remember it well. I can't believe it, another pile of BS brought to us by our wonderfull government. Jeff

05-24-2008 01:46 PM  #26
aerostadt Certified Level Two   Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 38	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" It will be a long time before anyone replaces AP as a solid propellant oxidizer, because the specific impulse is very good for a solid propellant. The basic criteria for high performance is to make the combustion temperature high and the molecular weight low. The reason aluminum in APCP is used is because it gives a high combustion temperature and combines with the oxygen keeping considerable amount of free hydrogen in the exhaust. Yes, APCP produces plenty of hydrogen chloride gas in the exhaust and considerable aluminum oxide. I believe that the local farmers complain about it in Florida. During the cold war the Soviets would like to point out the environmental clean aspects of the Soyzuz versurs the Shuttle. On a total atmospheric basis the amount that the Shuttle injects is miniscule. I would think that strontium would not have any special detrimental health effects, but the downside effects of barium have been posted many times on RP. Bob

05-26-2008 09:24 AM  #27
denverdoc Rana sapiens   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 2814	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: This is very disturbing, especially as I know of no government agency with the authority to inspect and issue orders to land owners as to what crops and activities can legally co-exist on private land. I don't believe even the FDA can inspect crops before they have been harvested. Does anyone know of a government agency with such powers to determine land usage? I'd really like to question them on their ruling in this case since the EPA has not yet issued guidelines for Perchlorates. Appears to be part of the farm to table inspection program from Ohio Dept of Agriculture: http://www.ohioagriculture...hag/ohioaginfo/info5.htm Now as to whether they can rule on dual use issues, I would hope that would be part of the deal. I can think of many activities that might be less than wholesome to farm products. Flying rockets, sure I like my snap beans with a little barium on them. Seriously, this seems much ado over nothing--unless the foods grown there have unusually high concentrations of toxic chemicals. But unfortunately who is going to appeal?

05-27-2008 10:06 AM  #28
kgholloway APCP-4E   Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 12	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Quote: Appears to be part of the farm to table inspection program from Ohio Dept of Agriculture: http://www.ohioagriculture...hag/ohioaginfo/info5.htm Now as to whether they can rule on dual use issues, I would hope that would be part of the deal. I can think of many activities that might be less than wholesome to farm products. Flying rockets, sure I like my snap beans with a little barium on them. Seriously, this seems much ado over nothing--unless the foods grown there have unusually high concentrations of toxic chemicals. But unfortunately who is going to appeal? I don't know about an appeal, I don't even know if there is an appeals process, but I am certainly going to write, as a concerned citizen of Ohio, to my state representatives. The Ohio Department of Agriculture seems to be trying to run all farming in the state from Columbus. I thought that centralized farm planning died with the old Soviet Union, but apparently I was wrong.

05-27-2008 11:25 AM  #29
SpartaChris Certified Certifiable   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 126	Re: Tripoli Mid-Ohio’s Memorial Day launch "vege-tabled" Could any of it have to do with the recent farm bill in the senate? I know part of that bill included all kinds of subsidies for security and things of the like.