CEDAR CITY, Utah USA — On June 20th, 2008 at the Mudroc launch in Nevada's Black Rock Desert, Curt von Delius (TRA 10592) established a pending 'M'-class single motor altitude record of over 40,000 feet AGL using a Kosdon by AeroTech™ (KBA™) Animal-Compatible™ M1450W rocket motor reload kit.

Curt von Delius

The flight was Curt's Level 3 project and is the culmination of a three year endeavor. The maximum velocity achieved was 2,818 ft/sec (1,921 mph). The rocket was recovered 11.3 miles downrange after a six hour search, and the airframe and fin leading edges showed signs of extreme heating.

The new record shatters the previous record of 35,300 feet set by Jim Wilkerson on 9/17/05. Curt is also the holder of the 'J'-class record of 19,240 feet using an AeroTech J570W motor and the 'L'-class record of 31,316 feet. In fact, seven of the nine existing single-motor altitude records have been established using AeroTech motors.

Von Delius' flight on an KBA Animal-Compatible M1450W. Photo: Steve Wigfield.

The entire airframe was constructed with lightweight carbon fiber composites.  The main body was built using aerospace grade, filament wound carbon fiber tube by Composite Solutions, courtesy of Greg Fannin. High density carbon plate fins were attached with Cotronics high temperature epoxy and vacuum-bagged 10.9 oz. aerospace grade Amoco T-650 3K carbon fabric.

The project was launched from a custom-built aluminum tower. Maximum acceleration was 26.2 Gs and apogee occurred at 48 seconds. The vehicle measures 68.4" in length and 3.13" in diameter and weighs 76 oz. without motor. Recovery was accomplished by deploying a highly modified SkyAngle 28" drogue at apogee, and a modified SkyAngle 52" main at 2,400', using black powder charges.

The M1450W is an 8,060 newton-second reload kit that generates a peak thrust of 480 pounds, a burn time of 5.46 seconds and fits Animal Motor Works™ (AMW™) 75-7600 motor hardware. Like all KBA Animal-Compatible reloads, the M1450W is an outstanding value and is priced 25% below the cost of AMW reloads of similar size. The M1450W also delivers a higher total impulse than AMW 75-7600 reloads.

Curt would like to thank Ken Biba, Richard Hagen and all the Aeropac "Founding Fathers" for their continuing help and knowledge. Also, thanks go out to Steve Wagner for his help in the recovery effort. Launch photo courtesy Steve Wigfield.

Animal Motor Works™ and AMW™ are trademarks of Animal Motor Works, Inc.

AeroTech Consumer Aerospace is a division of RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc., Cedar City, UT.

07-01-2008 03:47 PM  #1
Planet News Newsbot   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 3	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload STORY UPDATE: Quote: From: Tom Rouse Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:54 PM Subject: Re: AeroTech Information Release 7/1/08 Curt's record is denied. He used an ALTACC flight computer which uses a baro sensor that is capable of only registering accurately to +- 33,000 MSL. It is the Motorola MPX4100A. Basically .. below 20 kPa - the device will output a small voltage but the data has MUCH more error than signal and hence is completely unreliable even if the software reports an altitude. His claim of 44,000 AGL at Black Rock puts his MSL altitude at 48,000 feet which is totally inaccurate due to the ability of the sensor limits at 33,000 feet +-. As TRA's chair person for contests I have cautioned people over the years regarding use of altimeters that are not capable of operating at the altitudes desired. To my knowledge, there is only one computer that is capable of accurately recording altitudes over 34,000 MSL and that is the G-Wiz. GPS is another means of collecting accurate altitude data and must be recorded in a format that can be reviewed with the application submittals. Tom Rouse

07-01-2008 04:44 PM  #2
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1418	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible What I find notable is that for all practical purposes it was flown with "Jerry propellant". Edit: I might have to revise that comment. A W would clearly be a Gary propellant.

07-01-2008 04:50 PM  #3
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Well Jerry inspired or not--it's a killer motor in what must have been a killer flight. Tom's comment above makes me wonder where one might find a list of approved altimeters, and for what altitudes. The Perfect Flite Hi-alt and a few others claim accuracy (or to be at least functional to altitudes above 33K MSL).

07-01-2008 04:57 PM  #4
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1225	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload The Parrot V2 in it's 100k' form from Featherweight should be accurate above 33k' MSL. According to the website, it could be used to absolute vacuum. I know the V1 of the Parrot was certified for TRA records. I don't know if V2 has been certified or not.

07-01-2008 06:09 PM  #5
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Thanks, I'll check it out. Thats getting pretty rarified--about 1Kpascal IIRC, or about 1/20 of what Tom is talking about where the S/N ratio degrades to unusability with the Moto 4100 sensor. One can almost imagine having to count the molecules banging around that high--wonder if you see quantum effects.

07-01-2008 06:18 PM  #6
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 116	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible The rocket also used GPS instrumentation which Tom was not aware of. Stay tuned.

07-01-2008 06:25 PM  #7
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 116	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: What I find notable is that for all practical purposes it was flown with "Jerry propellant". Edit: I might have to revise that comment. A W would clearly be a Gary propellant. That is correct.

07-01-2008 06:29 PM  #8
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload We will! GPS seems like the straight shot. No assumptions, accuracy good to a few meters or better, and with the new GPS 3 system, decimeters IIRC. That takes any guesswork out of the eqn.

07-01-2008 07:12 PM  #9
NiallOswald Caught the bug again...   Joined: May 2008 Posts: 38	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible I have a question. How would a 40k+ record compare to previous single-motor flights on ~8000Ns motors in similar rockets? Off the top of my head, it seems like a big number for that sort of impulse especially for a not especially slow-burning motor. I thought around 25k was typical for a 3" 6500Ns rocket and the multi-stage M record (44k?) was set using a pretty extreme combination of M1315 to minimum diameter K250W. If 40k+ on a single M can be verified, that's one hell of a good flight and a real achievement.

07-01-2008 07:26 PM  #10
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Well thats a very interesting question pending GPS verification. When that KBA load was announced, I ran to my laptop to see what Rocksim suggested the performance limits were (here was an 8000N-s load with significantly lower ave thrust than the AMW's which were always bested in sims by the longer burning but lower impulse moonburners available). Even from 5000MSL (our launch site, Black Rock is lower), my design (that appears nearly identical to the rocket in the photogragh) could only muster 37K and change. Thats polished AF and a total Cd(min) of about .38 subsonically, and only about .44 or less beyond 1700'/s. The J record of Curt's is even more astounding. Curt has some serious mojo working as I typically assume RS to be a best case scenario and virtually incapable of underestimates. I don't have more sophisticate software to look at the supersonic side unfortunately.

07-01-2008 08:14 PM  #11
Adrian A Featherweight Altimeters   Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 364	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: The Parrot V2 in its 100k' form from Featherweight should be accurate above 33k' MSL. According to the website, it could be used to absolute vacuum. I know the V1 of the Parrot was certified for TRA records. I don't know if V2 has been certified or not. Reply With Quote The Parrot altimeter is certified for Tripoli record attempts. The baro measurement chain and calibration methods are identical between the original Parrot and the Parrot V2, so I assume that the certification for the Parrot V1 carries over to the Parrot V2. The baro sensor for the Parrot is the Freescale MPXM2102 sensor, which has an operational range of 0 to 100 kPa (1 atm to pure vacuum). I use an instrumentation op-amp that scales the voltage so that 1 atm is over 1 V. Then the A/D I use compares the output to a 1V reference or a 2V reference. The 1V reference version maxes out at about 32kft, and the 2V reference version covers the entire sensor range, down to vacuum. The choice of reference is selected before the calibration. I've given some thought to calibrating each unit with both references, but I don't know if I can fit that into the calibration and flight codes yet, so each unit is individually calibrated for its selected altitude range.

07-01-2008 10:11 PM  #12
Tom Rouse Rouse-Tech, Inc.   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 17	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Denverdoc says Curt had some serious Mojo going! I think he did too. Nice project. Curt is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman and is liked by everyone. Pure talent. In regards to this discussion, remember, all the information that was submitted to me was the ALTACC baro result as determined at the launch site and signed off by the witnesses. Rumor has it, that there was a GPS onboard that had a readout of 40,000 +- at max altitude. Black Rock is 4,000 feet, so the rockets performance didn't split the waters of the Red Sea. The existing record is 35,300 feet for a M motor, so IF this flight went to 36,000 feet, it barely beat the existing record. If the flyer and these witnesses knew there was GPS data on board that had a reading of +-40,000 MSL (36,000 AGL) and used the exceptionally high readout of the ALTACC and ignored the GPS, what would you do if you were me? How could a group of people ignore such a discrepancy and without any discovery as to why there was such a discrepancy, merely submit the higher readout and ignore the GPS? Now, there is a movement to have me accept the missing GPS data almost two weeks later. This data was not substantiated at the launch by people. I can not accept this in good conscience. People MUST follow the rules and launch rockets with the proper altimeters and have those results supported AT THE LAUNCH by witnesses. Curt can easily launch again. Or, someone can contact the previous record holder and explain this to him and why his record is taken away. Maybe he also has some "missing" GPS data that was not submitted? Hmmmmm........... Tom PS- Jerry- Stay out of this. No one wants to hear your rambling negative BS.

07-01-2008 10:42 PM  #13
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4553	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: The existing record is 35,300 feet for a M motor, so IF this flight went to 36,000 feet, it barely beat the existing record. The existing record must be beat by 2%, which is 706 feet for this particular record, a total of 36006 feet minimum verifiable to claim the record.

07-01-2008 11:00 PM  #14
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1418	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: PS- Jerry- Stay out of this. No one wants to hear your rambling negative BS. Especially when I agree with you and your methods.

07-01-2008 11:06 PM  #15
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Darrell makes the very important point that 2 percent or better is required and puts the threshold for a record at 36,000. If the GPS read >42K MSL, I can see where a case could be made. But if its 40K and would barely dislodge the existing record, I would be inclined to say no--mostly out of fairness to the existing record holder. Had the GPS been intended as the primary means of altitude determination before the fact, and the record was submitted along with supporting data re accuracy, and the flight occurred when there was maximal satellite coverage over the Playa, then even a close call at say 36,050 would be good to go. I think 2 weeks after the fact after being called on the issue of altimeter accuracy is not in the spirit of the competition. You have your ducks in a row at the time of submission, end of story. As noted, Curt has opportunities to fly again, serious mojo, and with his track record will doubtless find a way to make the next one go even higher.

07-01-2008 11:53 PM  #16
Tom Rouse Rouse-Tech, Inc.   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 17	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible A sincere thank you to Jerry for not biting my head off. A wonderful and unexpected reply. Yes, we are evolving!!!!

07-02-2008 12:08 AM  #17
H_rocket Village Idiot   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 706	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible The whole thing leaves me in some sort of awe... Less than 6' long 3" nominal diameter Under 6 pounds dry Heck, I'd load that with a big I and call it a great afternoon Talk about going for the throat.

07-02-2008 01:44 AM  #18
JimJarvis50 Certified Level One   Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Tom, you have a thankless job, but thanks anywayCurious about your comments regarding high altitude altimeters.* I know that you are aware of the altitude "bug" that affected the g-wiz products for a while.* I hope no existing records were affected by that.What about the Perfectflight HA-45 or the Adept AltS2-50K?* They have been around for a while and would seem to be above the 34K altitude you mentioned, but are you not crediting data from them?Are you accepting flights where gps is the only data source?Jim

07-02-2008 01:55 AM  #19
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1418	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible As far as records go, this particular flight seems to have disparate answers from different altitude methodologies. Further, the stated margin of "beat" seems like it might not be met. The flight sounds very cool indeed. One cannot go back in time and reanalyze any "hot track" that might have preceeded it. All you can do is move forward and beat it with whatever motors might exist. I might suggest lowering the diameter further, or flying it from an even higher altitude site using the same combination. Just Jerry

07-02-2008 06:14 PM  #20
Sailorbill Certified Level Two   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 91	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: As far as records go, this particular flight seems to have disparate answers from different altitude methodologies. Further, the stated margin of "beat" seems like it might not be met. The flight sounds very cool indeed. One cannot go back in time and reanalyze any "hot track" that might have preceeded it. All you can do is move forward and beat it with whatever motors might exist. I might suggest lowering the diameter further, or flying it from an even higher altitude site using the same combination. Just Jerry POINT!

07-02-2008 07:01 PM  #21
blackjack2564 Crazy Jim's Gone Bananas   Joined: May 2007 Posts: 188	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible I have just started to fool around with high altitude flights. After searching Tripoli's site,looking for altimeter info on record flights, and finding none..... Could some one enlighten me as to which ones ARE acceptable, for these kinds of accuracy. Or even if others are qualified for lower altitudes. During the past year I have expanded my altimeter collection with the purchase of Hialt 45's and Missleworks mini's, hoping these would cover 20-30,000ft accurately. Not that it matters at this point, I can always buy what's needed, but I would like to have approved alts in my inventory. You could not give me a G-whiz after the 4 I've been through that don't work. So.........which one's are the golden bullet?

07-02-2008 07:27 PM  #22
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload BJ, My recommendation would be a Parrot. See: http://www.featherweightaltimeters.com/ There are many out there, most of them very good, but if you're itching to set a record or two, this would be the one-it is certified to an almost incredible 100,000 ', is very small and light, and has the additional advantage of an accelerometer on-board which can be fun all by itself, and is able to turn some nifty tricks such as only stage (or cluster) if above a certain altitude at such and such a time--in other words has a programmable staging defeat, so that if the rocket veers off course or a motor ails to ignite, it limits the damage. Short story--it is fully functioned and the proprietor is very invested in squeezing the most accuracy and performance out of it, sells for a very fair $130.00 Hopefully one of us will do a full review in the not too distant future.

07-02-2008 07:53 PM  #23
Adrian A Featherweight Altimeters   Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 364	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Thanks for the recommendation, Denverdoc. The price is actually $149. I haven't had the spare stock to spare for a review, but that should be changing soon.

07-02-2008 09:08 PM  #24
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload Still a deal.

07-02-2008 11:08 PM  #25
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 4071	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: Thanks for the recommendation, Denverdoc. The price is actually $149. I haven't had the spare stock to spare for a review, but that should be changing soon. Oh no... we're gonna have to review the Parrot? Please don't throw me in that briar patch! DIBBS!!!!

07-02-2008 11:37 PM  #26
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible M1450W reload I thought you were busy with the night rocket...

07-02-2008 11:40 PM  #27
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 4071	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: I thought you were busy with the night rocket... Guilty... but that hasn't arrived. Honestly I suspect this needs to go to someone other than me with a wider variety of altimeter experience and with more opportunity to fly sooner than later. The only altimeters I personally have owned are a Missileworks RRC2x and an Olsen FCP-M2. Neither of these use accelerometers and neither has any real recording data to speak of. (The Olsen has minimal recording but nothing like the Parrot). I have friends with Adepts, and MAWD's and HiALT's and ARTS - but little experience outside my own altimeter use. I just wanted to yank some chains and rock the boat... I plan on buying one when I can anyway!

07-02-2008 11:43 PM  #28
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4553	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible How did the M altitude thread get turned into my mods grovelling for freebies?

07-02-2008 11:44 PM  #29
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 4071	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: How did the M altitude thread get turned into my mods grovelling for freebies? Please sir... some more porridge. Sign of the economy?

07-02-2008 11:52 PM  #30
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3200	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible Quote: How did the M altitude thread get turned into my mods grovelling for freebies? You're right, but this would be only a loaner, and being more proximate, I would hate to see RP inconvenience the vendor with having to mail it. The real thread action has since moved to http://www.rocketryplanet....ad.php?p=91150#post91150

07-02-2008 11:53 PM  #31
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4553	Re: Tripoli ’M’ altitude record shattered using Kosdon by AeroTech Animal-Compatible How generous of you! ROFL!