rocket999

Cool! It will be cool to do a 2 stage rocket with an F motor in the sustaner without having to use a timer. But Why are the motors 28mm? Why not make the motors just 1mm wider so it would fit a little better in a 29mm motor mount?

Sam Kelly
Jackson Model Rocketry Club member

DaveCombs

Indeed. It should make the custom centering ring people happy, between the 28mm MMT and Quest's metric BT sizes...

But, they do get a thumbs up for bringing new stuff to the market. With these engines, I'm guessing the next thing up will be kits based on them.

ksaves2

Odd size 28mm unless it will fit a 29mm MM. Would have been neat to have
another 24mm size. I miss the Estes E9-P I used to use for two stage flights
in a smaller model. Twist out the clay plug and have an instant booster.
Yeah, Yeah, I know. Not legal, but I only did at isolated site by myself.

Kurt

Just Jerry

Motors with aluminum, phenolic or fiberglass cases are a fixed diameter. Black powder motors packed into paper casings are variable diameter depending on the pack pressure, individual strength of the particular paper sample and other factors such as curing and humidity. BP motors are amorphous.

So by making them on the small side, a bit of tape, slightly different length on each motor makes them as universal as possible. Also the diameter is enlarged by the label a considerable amount. As a former Aerotech dealer, lots of motors delivered with labels simply did not fit in all available rockets at all. They were not readily removed either.

This is a good compromise.

Just Jerry

DaveCombs

So, if Quest makes new kits based on these, do you think they'll ship with 29mm MMTs?

< shread >
Well, what did Bill say when you asked him?
< /shread >

Art Upton

Being a paper case, they might swell a little as time goes on, and then would not fit very well. I'm sure you have seen this problem on C motors time to time.

A few wraps of masking tape will make them fit 29mm tubes easy, as with the labels on them as well.

But the most logical reason is, they are the size the Asian Factory was tool and die for already; reducing tooling costs at the same time as making sure paper doesn't swell.

I look forward to buying quite a bit of these motors, kudos to Bill to getting these motors imported and OEMed for his company. I wish Quest well in the market.

ddmobley

Be happy, be very happy that they didn't make them 30mm.

Just Jerry

That's approximately what Enertek did. Ever heard of Enertek?

I am pretty sure I am the only person offered a position at Enertek who said "no".

Jerry

Art Upton

I think your confusing Enertek with Dark Star motors.

Enertek was with Bill,Gary, and Bob etc. They used aerotech single use motors. Their models like the Initiator and Mustang; the rights and tooling etc Gary bought when Enertec never launched.

Estes used the 28mm Dark Star motors from Vulcan, and redid the NCR models to use 28mm motor tube instead of 29mm motor tubes. As a result, AT RMS motors fit tight, but not single use

So they were locking the user to Dark Star motors. Your buddy Bob Kapow did a FAQ sheet on how to peel the inside of the motor mount to get a 29mm single use motor to fit.

Just what position did they offer you Jerry?

HACK PS: I still have my EnterTek Catlog sheets

Just Jerry

Estes went with undersize 28mm motors and mounts to exclude errortech 29mm motors from their kits. Enertek went with 30mm so motors they made needed to go in kits made by them.

Estes was smarter.

Estes is still in business.

Dark Star motors barely were even noticed in the marketplace, if at all. Enertek motors never saw consumer light.

Marketing Management.

USR made fully standard sized motors and kits, and had a large and growing market share when it was decertified and shunned. USR was unilaterally growing TRA and NAR membership, as well as industry participation generally, at the almost 1000 users per year rate. I believe total users now are about 5000 worldwide. :<

Jerry

n3tjm

Actually it was the other way around. I had several people in the past trade their G40's (the good 120 n/s ones) for G64's and borrowed my RMS 29/40-120 case when they found out the hard way that they did not fit their NCR/Estes Patriot.

The RMS motors fit just fine.

Art Upton

Doug, your not reading the post.

RMS fit tight, but do fit. Single use do not.

You state the exact same thing above, IE they traded you a single use for a RMS case/load to fit the Estes/NCR rocket.

Just who let the Doug out

BobbyB

I have a few DARK star motors in my collection... H55's too....

My compliments to Quest.... MORE motor choices is a GOOD thing...

As for the size... 1 mm under the 29mm std means you bring tape to the launch [ wait real rocekteers do that anyways > OK bring more tape....

Bottom line if it were 30 mm you'd be screwed.... Right.....

ITS FITS in ALL of your 29mm ROCKETS, SAY THANK YOU!

I look forward to carrying them

Bobby B

R2K

Lets just hope these motors are not full of lead powder or asbestos

DaveCombs

And risk going over 62.5g? I don't think so...

Art Upton

Just so Jerry knows, China was making model rocket motors in sizes down to B in small sizes and a line of their own rocket kits long before this. They used them in FAI championships etc.

Many looked into importing them. I belive Tim is importing the Kits, and the D motor Bill just released is made by the same company. Others were unable to import the motors, because they were told someone else had exclusive agreement to the motors. We saw with the D motor introduction it was Bill.

I'm just happy a black powder motor in a larger size is avalable again simply for the nostalgia of the smell that takes one back in time to the FSI days etc. I'll use AT E and F motors for performance ISP in that area.

Two different needs, two differant sources. Both help rocketry out.

LenB

I hope these get approval for use in Canada. Cool. It would be great to be able to make motors like this ala "the David Sleeter book". Ah well, maybe some day.

In any case, ummm Quest, please send these 3 to ERD ASAP!! 8-)

Len Bryan

StuBarrett

These are BP motors, not APCP.

Stu

Art Upton

Hi Stu,
I can tell you that AVI in the 70s had to reduce the propellent in its F motor from the original published specs down smaller to fit 62.5 grams.

Also <=62.5 grams is part of the definition of a model rocket motor in NFPA. It is why the original G33 from Aerotech was an HPR motor rather then a model rocket motor.

Just Jerry

THAT should be changed unilaterally by NAR and TRA (and Aerotech and Quest) to conform with the FAA 125 gram unified limit and the Model Rocket Safety Code 125 gram maximum limit and get rid of any per motor mass limits. That will make a 240H (29mm 4 grain, 38mm 2 grain, 54mm 1 grain) a model rocket motor and make full G's widespread again.

Imagine a 125g BP motor! 38mm G100 or F25! Or a 125g Nozzleless motor! 38mm H90! Oh, wait, no imagination required, they were certified. By me.

Lawsuits are fine, but stop shooting yourself in the foot too!!

Jerry

cite:

54-240

http://v-serv.com/usr/54probulk.htm

http://v-serv.com/usr/rr54mm.htm

shockwaveriderz

Jerry your hyperbole is breathless.

I doubt very seriously that model rocket motors are being carefully monitored by whoever. maybe APCp HPR motors. But no small BP motors.

Quest has been importing model rocket motors into the USA from Germany now for at least 10 plus years.

Quest has said they have stopped using German manufacturing due to the Euro-USD imbalance and thats why they went with Chinese made motors. As Art correctly pointed out, the Chinese have been making BP motors since at least the late 80's to early 90's for their FAI team useage and their own domestic model rocket market.

The only thing that Bill Stine didn't anticipate when he second sourced his motors from China as that the price of Oil would go up 50%, resulting in the trasnportation costs of shipping from China going literally through the proverbial roof. I'm sure if that didn't happen these new motors would have been even less expensive than they are.

I did some background research on the Chinese company that is actually producing these motors and they are indeed part of a large conglomerate of state companies that are part of what I will characterize as the Chinese Military-Space-Industrial complex.

As far as to your last comments, no comment.


terry dean

shockwaveriderz

I forgot to add this:

http://forums.rocketshoppe...hp?p=34392&postcount=196

terry dean

ddmobley

The law is color-blind, it does not require a motor to be APCP to be subject to the 62.5 gram regulations.



Any motor over 62.5 grams is considered a regulated high power rocket motor.

shockwaveriderz

Jerry, the reason I didn't comment about your characterization of the lack of safety at Quest, was that I have spoken with Bill Stine on just this issue recently, and I just don't think your comments are a valid characterization of the facts of the matter.

but, to each their own on this.

I'm fully aware that a number of east euro people have been making their own small modle rocket size motors for literally decades and they smuggle them about europe. I'm pretty sure If I know this, all the way over here in Indiana, that Interpol or whoever over there is well aware of it and doesn't consider it a problem. I'm not saying its right or legal, I'm just saying the Former east euro socialist/communist countries have a very different view towards following the rule of law, considering they had no rule of law for near 50 years. I'm sure that eventually as they become more integrated into the EU and the EU regulations start creeping more into their systems of government this will be migitated somewhat if not completely.

The only reason that I can see that the authorities here in the USA call model rockets HPR and vice-versa is the NAR/TRA has intentionally muddied the waters by using such BS terms such as Consumer rocketry or sport rocketry or hobby rocketry all which have no valid legal meaning nor definitions, in their own NFPA regulations that they push on the rest of us.

I would agree that the overall size of the model rocket market in China is small, and its probably mostly FAI.

The reason Bill Stine had to go overseas to have BP model rocket motors made was the excessive and onerous NFPA regulations among others that just made it prohibitively too expensive to do so here.

Price is always an issue Jerry. It is and was much cheaper for Bill Stine to look east for motor production than to invest a ton of money here before he sold 1 motor.

Well I hope those containers are humidity and temperature controlled, otherwise there sure is gonna be alot of cato's going on.

terry dean

StuBarrett

Thanks for the data. It is good to learn something new every day!

Stu

UncleVanya

Terry - my understanding of this is limited so bear with me and be gentle if I'm off base. I thought you had to have huge swings of temp (+/- 100 degrees) in temp cycles over time to make the BP Motor problems occur.

Also I would expect the shipping containers are pretty airtight and that will help the humidity issues. Also being in the cargo hold of a ship will tend to moderate the temperature cycling - the ocean is a pretty good moderator of temp swings.

Bill's been importing from Germany for a while so I suspect this is well in hand. Sure the trip from China is a longer boat ride but probably the same methods used from EU to US will be employed.

PJStein

Jerry,

I'd like to get some of the propellant listed on your web site. How do I go about obtaining it?

THanks

ddmobley

All the German firms in China can leave but that is not going to change the fact that this thread is about Quest releasing D, E and F motors, not the politics of the nation. Please constrain your conversations to the motors themselves, not the politics.