R2K

Little green motors please!

Anthony Cesaroni

If you insist on green, remember that barium compounds are the green colorant in sport rocketry propellants. Please see my previous post on the topic at http://www.rocketryplanet....php?p=96026&postcount=20 .

FYI, the traditional antidote for low dose barium exposure is magnesium sulfate, aka Epsom salts. It causes the systemic barium to metabolize over time to barium sulfate which is insoluble and it usually passes out of the body. If you’re lucky and assuming it’s low dose that is. Metabolic barium has a half life of about 2 months and you may want to consider a diet rich in bananas and kaolin while keeping the H2O intake up if you are prescribing to the treatment.

Everybody wants "green" these days. Bit of an oxymoron when it comes to safety, health and the environment.


Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

UncleVanya

Anthony - assuming we want to fly these what precautions in terms of handling etc would you suggest? Would you suggest nitrile gloves during assembly? During cleaning? Trying to avoid breathing the smoke?

Garoq

Follow the instructions that come with the reload kits.

gregm

Kosdon Reloads, NOT Aerotech in Kosdon Hardware.

Anthony Cesaroni

At least there’s a notice included and hopefully it meets FHSA requirements. Do you have a MSDS published for it as well?

As I stated, we have concerns about consumer, employee, environmental and CPSC issues at this time.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

UncleVanya

Gary - I'm guilty of complacency. I usually look at the diagrams and briefly review the text. I have missed the special instructions that these reloads must contain.

UncleVanya

MODERATOR NOTE: Several off topic posts were removed. If desired they can be moved into a new thread but I didn't see much point in the "My nozzle is bigger than your nozzle" context so I have simply removed them for now.

No fouls here - just trying to keep this on track and on topic.

JRogers

Good point Anthony

H_rocket

Do the comments by Anthony concerning the hazards of the Barium compoubnds used indicate that the end of the Green Gorilla is in sight?

That would be sad as I like the look and the way it performs.

snaquin3

Did anyone here that attended LDRS-27 attend the news conference to find out what the new AeroTech products are?

Thanks!

.

snaquin3

I just found where Eric Cayemberg had posted the details of what was announced at the news conference in a thread on TRF if anyone else is interested.

http://www.rocketryforum.c...php?p=579240&postcount=3

I have a few cluster models that are looking forward to the return of the AeroTech F21 24mm SU motors.

.

rrocket

Gary mentions where to get the Kosdon base hardware.
He fails to mention where consumers using his KBA loads, that are melting AMW hardware are suppose to get replacment hardware.

I had 3 unhappy AT customers approach me at LDRS wondering what they should do??

Also I would like to see the NAR Testing data with the temp case readings.As perscribed in the testing code.

How can these motors pass testing, and see so many melted casings??

There was also a brand new certified N1000 Moonburner that blistered BOTH ends of the casing, and you could see the vertical path of heat damage the whole length of the case.
it took Jim 2 days to get the casing out of his rocket.

I thought we were going to be testing on a level playing field.
especially after the issues raised against my products!!

What's up with this??
This not only hurts customers using KBA loads, but also MY customers that use MY hardware for MY loads..

Maybe Gary should have to purchase new hardware for these people.
In an effort to insure the customer gets the level of quality I maintain, I think he should have to provide them with genuine AMW hardware, not some knock off!
Paul

UncleVanya

Paul - I'm confused. I thought the N1000 was for Aerotech 98mm cases and not for AMW. Didn't Gary have to replace this 98mm case with his own case? I'm not trying to minimize your other points - I think the sticky underside of cross certification is what to do when a product (Propellant) in another product (casing) causes damage.

A long time ago Cesaroni's dual certified loads were introduced and CTI offered to replace damaged cases - with their own cases. This approach is not what you are asking Gary to do - but it seems better than having them take no responsibility. Personally I think the marketplace can take care of this. If the cases are damaged frequently the fliers aren't going to buy the reloads anymore. Ellis Mountain's reloads experienced (from what I understand) a reputation that marginalized their sales.

Garoq

AeroTech is actively investigating the handful of failures that have occurred since the introduction of the Animal-Compatible loads over a year ago. To my knowledge these are limited to the 75-7600 loads.

AeroTech will warranty any Animal-Compatible failures including hardware. The customers were told this, so I don't know why they were coming to you.

Paul, I would respectfully remind you to please honor our agreement that we speak well of each other in public and on internet forums.

Also that you would publicly apologize for the false and provocative things you have said about me in the past, as you stated in the presence of several witnesses at LDRS-27.

I believe you may have inferred in another thread that higher quality liners could be submitted for certification and then substituted with lesser quality liners in production. This was NOT the case.

The N1000W is an AeroTech load, not Animal-Compatible. It passed our own testing and NAR certification without blistering the cases. There could have been assembly issues with the load flown at LDRS, and we will be flying another load next week at XPRS for further analysis.

The Animal-Compatible loads have been designed for high-performance, and it could be that improved liners or other means are necessary to keep them in their cages long-term.

Just Jerry

That's a hoot! Institutionalized cover-up! Perfect for this "industry"!

Just amused Jerry

UncleVanya

Gary - that's news to me. I'm glad to hear it. I am surprised that more people are not aware of this.




Not to hash the wound - but most of us have no idea what was said, do you really want to have a public apology for something most of us don't know about? I don't have any of the facts on this one - but Paul doesn't seem like a guy to just spread lies - maybe there is a misunderstanding here?




Gary - I know the K550 and K695 and other 54mm reloads recently required a change to use a forward seal disc - is it common for Aerotech to respond to customer problems by performing additional tests until a solution is found? I was both impressed and dismayed that reloads as venerable as the K550 would be "improved" - impressed that it was resolved - dismayed it was so long after inception.




That's also good news. As long as each manufacturer of propellant is willing to warranty the cases that the propellant is flown in then there is a vested interest on all parties to make reliable products.

Gary - good to hear from you here - don't be such a stranger.

H_rocket

How is a request to keep their public relationship civil part of a cover up?

Just Jerry

Because it is code for don't talk crap about my crap products just because you have detected they are crap products.

Can he say factual representations about crap products in a polite and civil way and stay within that agreement? That would not be a cover up.

Just Jerry

bighairyrocket

Now who's calling who's product what?

sounds to me like all these manufacturers are trying their best to make a great product. why do they and others have to continue to sling mud.

I personally have heard and read many a nasty comment on here and other places.. If you cant say something nice shut the heck up... I dont want to hear it.

If anyone thinks making some else look bad makes you look good you are sorely mistaken.

Aerotech makes an excellent product and has always stood behind it 100% I have never heard them say anything bad about anyone.. others well not so much.

I have flown about everything that is out there. and they are all good products, this is rocketry, we are all learning and trying new things. failures are going to happen, no matter what you do to prevent them. look at the Space shuttle, how many flights have they had? 200-300 range. how many failures have they had? 2 for sure. thats 1%.ish, how about apollo missions? 17 or so, and again 2 failures? thats almost 10% thats with peoples lifes at stake, and built by the best there is and no expense spared ... if you think any rocket motor company is going to do any better than that your expecting more than is possible, and you should pick a new hobby, might i suggest knitting or stamp collecting those are fairly safe.

Rocket motor makers are trying to push the envelope, to give us a better more powerful product... there are going to be some bumps along the way to get there. if you cant afford to crash cato or loose your rocket you should not be flying. I know there is not one of you out there that can say you NEVER had that happen to you. if you do you are lying.

Now stop whining and start flying...

My $.02

DaveCombs

I hear model train sets are popular...

Loopy

BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

Just Jerry

Knitting is proven more hazardous than model rocketry in the past 40 years.

If I think any rocket motor company is going to do any better, and expecting more is possible, I say I DID pick a hobby. Motor manufacturing and getting them certified by TRA. Now one motor was decertified when FAA added the 15 second burn time, but the others were decertified as a result of a political rip led by TRA President himself directly connected with a civil dispute among partners of another disassociated company, that President was a member of! That's a conflict of interest. That very product line was more diverse, available and reliable than the Aerotech product line. No more.

Therefore my posts at least are not whining, but discussing actual events and the consequences of them.

Guess what Aerotech did after the field was cleared for them? Started selling reloads BEFORE they were either TRA or DOT approved, started demanding ATF permits for then exempt PADs, as proffered in the current NAR/TRA lawsuit so we know it is the real position of those clubs.

Were they censured or decertified or de-membered or banned by TRA for wrecking the industry? Nope. The three vendors speaking up against the practice and engaging in the alternative legal practice were banned.

That is not whining. That is history.

That series of events has STOPPED a bunch of flying on the order of hundreds of thousands of flights. Get your head around that.

Just Jerry

UncleVanya

Imagine what you'd get if the two hobbies converged...

"On Track 6 we have a Sparky N motor in a scale reproduction of Casey Jones..."

Hummmm... that's good.

UncleVanya

Citation please? Just because our hobby is safe is not reason to say my wife's isn't... I want proof.




The problem is that your version of history is not the accepted version of history by a large number of other folks in the hobby. Right or Wrong I'm not here to judge but to remind you why it's seen as whining by many.

Just Jerry

There have never been serious injuries from model rocketry. In some extreme cases people have been killed by knitting needles, some even while being properly used as a result of complications from injuries and infections.

The people you refer to are not viewing historical fact with a clear mind. Or maybe they are participating in the cover-up as dozens did. You don't need to believe my citation of history to know and believe AT demands a BATFE permit to sell motors, and did so a decade before the ATF did in 10-06.

Just Jerry

cite:

Accepted version of history for centuries: The world is flat. I guess they were right.

UncleVanya

This kills me. I stumbled onto the flat earth folks recently and read their forum for a fascinating hour or two - it was disturbing and compelling (to look at but not believe). The claims and intricate fantastic explanations that these folks have created to justify their positions are enough to make you cry and laugh at the same time.

Just Jerry

They learned it from the TRA BOD. Wonder if I speak the truth? Just read a decade or more of rmr and just focus on first hand accounts.

The solution now is to have ethics, there is limited success there, to lower barriers to entry for consumers and vendors, there is gross reverse progress there, and to have outreach both for membership and positive public mindshare, there is no progress there.

I have seen it and experienced it happening before so I know it is actually possible.

Jerry

UncleVanya

Typed words on a screen don't make this true or not. You must realize that first hand accounts may or may not be accurate, truthful, and biased. But we've veered off into a ditch away from the original topic.

Just Jerry

While it is true we are no longer discussing the Aerotech product releases from the first post, that is because the questions were answered over at TRF and referred to in a link in this thread.

Then there was a discussion of "related things" such as recent AT problems at LDRS-2008 and issues of how TRA dealt with that. That raised past experience as on-topic.

The flat earth thing is an example of an entire culture forming to justify a position where the answer is the given, and refuting facts are ignored or disputed, mostly without rational basis.

That is the PRECISE thing TRA does, even today. That makes it VERY on-topic.

Might I suggest a more positive set of club actions, despite and separate from whatever is said in any thread anywhere.

Just Jerry

UncleVanya

Why not. But I think you want to start a new thread for that. You and I appear to be the only one's left in this meandering thread...

bighairyrocket

Haaa haaa haaa I hear your preception changes somtimes after breathing to many epoxy fumes... maybe a change of hobbies is more than due, it might just save your life.


By the way Jerry as I recall it was you that dissapeared when the regulations hit and you were not up to "standards", none of us is perfect. isn't it about time for you to take another........ vacation. or at least thats the way I remember it.

By the way you still living in the middle of nowhere/high desert area? are they still looking for you?