CEDAR CITY, Utah USA — AeroTech has become aware of a potential issue affecting the reliability of the M2030G reload kit that fits AeroTech, Dr. Rocket™ and Rouse-Tech™ RMS-75/5120 hardware.

Since May of 2008, there have been two (2) reported failures of RMS motors loaded with M2030G reloads. Both incidents involved ejection of the forward or aft closure at ignition. The failures occurred during a time when the ambient air temperature exceeded 104 degrees F. AeroTech believes that the high ambient air temperatures were a major factor in the failures, as all other M2030G motors operated at lower temperatures have performed normally, including AeroTech's own static testing and those tested during Tripoli Motor Testing (TMT) certification.

Customers are advised not to operate M2030G reloads manufactured prior to 9/08 when the ambient air temperatures exceed 90 deg. F at the time of launch. AeroTech is in the process of testing a revised version of the M2030G that will be able to operate in all expected hot weather conditions. This version will likely have a lower average thrust than the M2030G and may be given a different numeric designation. Once the revised M2030G is certified, customers will be given the option of exchanging any older M2030G reloads for the newer version through an authorized AeroTech dealer. Customers must possess a valid Low Explosive User Permit (LEUP) to make this exchange. The new version is expected to be available in early November. As always, AeroTech will honor valid warranty claims for all its products including the M2030G.

Customers with questions concerning this product bulletin may contact AeroTech at 435-865-7100 or via email at This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it . AeroTech appreciates its customers' patience and understanding as we work to resolve this issue.

AeroTech Consumer Aerospace is a division of RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc., Cedar City, UT.

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10-10-2008 01:56 PM  #1
madsen Certified Level Two   Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 31	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Read the full article. I guess there will not be many M2030G reloads at the GHS in 2 weeks. I have never seen the temperature get down to 90 degrees in Phoenix in October.

10-10-2008 02:15 PM  #2
R2K Certified Level Three   Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 273	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Maybe ice it down for a while? That couldnt possibly cause problems.

10-10-2008 04:19 PM  #3
JDcluster Certified Level Two   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 86	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads The real question should be; will the revised load still be an M or an L load? JD

10-10-2008 05:14 PM  #4
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: The real question should be; will the revised load still be an M or an L load? When I read this I thought - how silly. Then I did the math. If that motor loses more than 6.7% of thrust it's an L. Unless I hit the wrong keys... it's about 335 ns over the minimum and that's about 6.7% of the total. Interesting.

10-10-2008 06:40 PM  #5
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1298	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: When I read this I thought - how silly. Then I did the math. If that motor loses more than 6.7% of thrust it's an L. Unless I hit the wrong keys... it's about 335 ns over the minimum and that's about 6.7% of the total. Interesting. The motor is having this problem because it is nearly erosive and the slight burning rate increase from 90f to 105f is sufficient to make it hard-core erosive. Increasing the throat size one notch (which they could do by sending new nozzles to existing owners), would lower the pressure slightly and the power even more slightly but lower the thrust non-slightly. That seems to be what the "weather advisory" ( ) was saying. Changing the grain geometry such as drilling the final core one notch bigger would solve the problem at the same throat but decrease power by the propellant mass removed. Not sure if they have DOT approvals for that. Let's assume not. One thing this conclusively demonstrates is they made and delivered products to users before even understanding erosive and pressure limits, or at minimum, being conservative about it. That is stupid(tm). Just tech Jerry

10-10-2008 11:02 PM  #6
GHuber Certified Level One   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 15	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads You have a trade mark on stupid???

10-11-2008 01:09 AM  #7
hdben New Member   Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 2	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads I saw a few of the MG's let go along with a few other's during a hot spell. That was a memorable day, and a hot one as well.

10-11-2008 11:15 AM  #8
1lowtoy M2030+Ignition=BOOM!   Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 23	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Ive had one let go Im glad some one decided to anounce this cause it happened to my L3 attempt at ldrs and i got back confettie. I just to hate to see this happen to any one else. I do want to say that AT was very helpful in helping with property loss after the fact but still hate for it to happen.

10-11-2008 11:28 AM  #9
denverdoc Hall Monitor   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3044	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: When I read this I thought - how silly. Then I did the math. If that motor loses more than 6.7% of thrust it's an L. Unless I hit the wrong keys... it's about 335 ns over the minimum and that's about 6.7% of the total. Interesting. Taking these number at face value, a reduction of 3/4" would only take it down to L if the total grain(s) measured .75/.067=approx 11". The total grain length is about twice that. Course this neglects any effect oif dropping pressure during the burn.

10-11-2008 11:43 AM  #10
ddmobley Administrator   Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4024	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: I saw a few of the MG's let go along with a few other's during a hot spell. That was a memorable day, and a hot one as well. How can that be? The weather advisory says there were only two, and 1lowtoy was one of them at LDRS. That only leaves one...

10-11-2008 11:51 AM  #11
propellanttech from way back before RO   Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 323	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: How can that be? The weather advisory says there were only two, and 1lowtoy was one of them at LDRS. That only leaves one... Oh....you know....one.....two....twelve......doesn't matter to me.....it wasn't my rocket. I would seriously be upset if that happened to my level 3 rocket. But we all know it can happen at any time, for any reason. Hence the name "Rocket Science". James L

10-11-2008 12:10 PM  #12
1lowtoy M2030+Ignition=BOOM!   Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 23	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Ive done some reading on fourms and google searches. I found at least 2 others that catoed so i dont know how they came up with 2 unless there has only been 2 reported.

10-11-2008 02:56 PM  #13
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: I saw a few of the MG's let go along with a few other's during a hot spell. That was a memorable day, and a hot one as well. Could you define a few? As far as I understand it only two incidents have been filed with proper MESS reports.

10-11-2008 02:57 PM  #14
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Ive done some reading on fourms and google searches. I found at least 2 others that catoed so i dont know how they came up with 2 unless there has only been 2 reported. Would you mind sharing the info on the others? Were these all at > 90 degrees?

10-11-2008 07:20 PM  #15
1lowtoy M2030+Ignition=BOOM!   Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 23	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Would you mind sharing the info on the others? Were these all at > 90 degrees? No problem let me see if i can fin them i belive i found the other 2 on google the night after i got back from ldrs. I belive all i did was search for M2030 cato

10-11-2008 07:32 PM  #16
hdben New Member   Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 2	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Could you define a few? As far as I understand it only two incidents have been filed with proper MESS reports. Ok since we are getting TECHNICAL, I said a few of the MG's I am not sure it was the M2030 OK. But during that hot weekend I saw more than a few (couple) of Aerotechs motors let go along with several being the MG. It was unusually hot that weekend so sometimes things happen.

10-11-2008 11:06 PM  #17
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Ok since we are getting TECHNICAL, I said a few of the MG's I am not sure it was the M2030 OK. But during that hot weekend I saw more than a few (couple) of Aerotechs motors let go along with several being the MG. It was unusually hot that weekend so sometimes things happen. LOL - Sorry I wasn't trying to be a knit picker I PROMISE. I was trying to find out if people are failing to file the MESS reports. That's really the only way we get information back to the folks who do our motor testing and certification. This goes for ANY motor including ESTES.

10-11-2008 11:14 PM  #18
Porthos II Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 41	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Ok since we are getting TECHNICAL, I said a few of the MG's I am not sure it was the M2030 OK. But during that hot weekend I saw more than a few (couple) of Aerotechs motors let go along with several being the MG. It was unusually hot that weekend so sometimes things happen. What weekend? What launch? Erik

10-12-2008 01:10 AM  #19
1lowtoy M2030+Ignition=BOOM!   Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 23	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads same here i looked through the articles i looked at on google search that i had opened and the one was a m2030 and the other was a h250g read about, and i personally seen one let go at ldrs also. The h250g is what i belive Mike Gross had a failure of some sorts. I belive he is out of town right now and havent been able to talk to him this weekend. Where do i get the Mess paper work or do i even need to fill this out since every one knows about my incodent.

10-12-2008 09:24 AM  #20
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Where do i get the Mess paper work or do i even need to fill this out since every one knows about my incodent. http://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html http://www.tripoli.org/tmt/TMT_Motor_Failure.shtml

10-12-2008 01:51 PM  #21
Steve_Shannon Growing more clueless...   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 2212	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Where do i get the Mess paper work or do i even need to fill this out since every one knows about my incodent. Brad answered the where part of your question, but this is an opportunity for me to get on a soap box (I try not to miss those opportunities). Please do fill out the MESS report. The same goes for everybody else out there who has a problem with any commercial motor. If you don't, the failure doesn't count in the statistics and your story is not much more valuable than hearsay (except to you of course). Individual users have little leverage on the manufacturers. The national organizations have a lot of leverage, but they only have what is entered in the MESS reports to work with.

10-12-2008 09:48 PM  #22
1lowtoy M2030+Ignition=BOOM!   Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 23	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads will do ill fill it out before the end of the night.

10-13-2008 06:48 AM  #23
agrippo Certified Level Three   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 131	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Aerotech modified my M2030 at LDRS by increasing the aft core to 1" and epoxing it in. The way I understood it this slowed down the burn and allowed the gases to flow better through the nozzle. They also removed 3/16" from the forward grain to compensate for the expansion due to heat. It took all of 15 minutes and I didn't consider it to be a major modication since my rocket still flew to just about where I had originally simmed it. When people fly research this kind of stuff happens all the time. I really don't see what the big deal is except some folks just like to bash Aerotech every chance they possibly can. I was glad they were onsite and were willing to address the issue. Andrew Grippo

10-13-2008 09:48 AM  #24
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1078	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Aerotech modified my M2030 at LDRS Quote: When people fly research this kind of stuff happens all the time. This motor, M2030, is a certified motor. It is not a research motor. A CATO due to high temps on the field should not be expected and if it happens, it is a major issue. Quote: I really don't see what the big deal is except some folks just like to bash Aerotech every chance they possibly can. I was glad they were onsite and were willing to address the issue. Andrew Grippo I have all the Aerotech cases from 24mm through 54mm. I fly Aerotech 95% of the time and on average it is in the I range. I don't think I bash Aerotech but this was wrong. Modifying a load after the fact is not allowed and it shouldn't have happened. -Aaron

10-13-2008 09:51 AM  #25
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Aerotech modified my M2030 at LDRS by increasing the aft core to 1" and epoxing it in. The way I understood it this slowed down the burn and allowed the gases to flow better through the nozzle. They also removed 3/16" from the forward grain to compensate for the expansion due to heat. It took all of 15 minutes and I didn't consider it to be a major modication since my rocket still flew to just about where I had originally simmed it. When people fly research this kind of stuff happens all the time. I really don't see what the big deal is except some folks just like to bash Aerotech every chance they possibly can. I was glad they were onsite and were willing to address the issue. Andrew Grippo Andrew - Good to hear that it worked. But the concern I think a few have is that no announcement of the problem was made for quite a while. Also the fact that the motor's performance with the changes is unknown. This process may in fact be as safe as it can be - but if it changes the motor's performance significantly that's not allowed per the rules. EX flights don't have that restriction. Frankly while some may have an axe to grind - I hope that the point of getting MESS reports filed is not misunderstood. Any motor any time that doesn't perform as expected should be reported - otherwise we have no data and it's all supposition. Thanks again for reporting on your successful flight. Was the altitude on that flight recorded and did it reach the expected height?

10-13-2008 10:16 AM  #26
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1298	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Aerotech modified my M2030 at LDRS by increasing the aft core to 1" and epoxing it in. The way I understood it this slowed down the burn and allowed the gases to flow better through the nozzle. They also removed 3/16" from the forward grain to compensate for the expansion due to heat. It took all of 15 minutes and I didn't consider it to be a major modication since my rocket still flew to just about where I had originally simmed it. When people fly research this kind of stuff happens all the time. I really don't see what the big deal is except some folks just like to bash Aerotech every chance they possibly can. I was glad they were onsite and were willing to address the issue. Andrew Grippo The problem is not technical, but regulatory. What you just described is a direct and intentional violation of the TRA safety code, a violation of NFPA-1127 which is LAW in 35 states, and is therefore probably a CRIME. Now I am not calling for the klink or anything here, but the problem is modifying commercial motors in violation of fire codes and safety codes is clearly not "intended use", manufacturer involvement included. If one wants this behavior and other unforseen behaviors to be legal and permissible, then TRA should do as I have suggested for decades. Have EXEMPTIONS rather than RULES govern rocketry regulation. Keep in mind that before TRA came along and mucked everything up with their "codify everything" mantra, rocketry above 113g/453g was essentially entirely unregulated by NFPA, ATF, CPSC, and FAA only asked we get a waiver. Just Jerry TRA 012

10-13-2008 11:31 AM  #27
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Aerotech modified my M2030 at LDRS by increasing the aft core to 1" and epoxing it in. The way I understood it this slowed down the burn and allowed the gases to flow better through the nozzle. They also removed 3/16" from the forward grain to compensate for the expansion due to heat. It took all of 15 minutes and I didn't consider it to be a major modication since my rocket still flew to just about where I had originally simmed it. When people fly research this kind of stuff happens all the time. I really don't see what the big deal is except some folks just like to bash Aerotech every chance they possibly can. I was glad they were onsite and were willing to address the issue. Andrew Grippo Thank you for the endorsement Andrew, contrary to the pundits out there everything that was done was permitted by the applicable NFPA codes. Those who disagree should read NFPA 1125 and 1127 with an open mind and if they still don't understand it, read it again.

10-13-2008 12:24 PM  #28
Just Jerry Freeform rockets advocate   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 1298	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Thank you for the endorsement Andrew, contrary to the pundits out there everything that was done was permitted by the applicable NFPA codes. Those who disagree should read NFPA 1125 and 1127 with an open mind and if they still don't understand it, read it again. Please be so kind as to point out the code reference. Thanks! Keeping in mind this was an "HPR" launch "compliant with NFPA-1127" and the user was a "consumer". Jerry

10-13-2008 12:39 PM  #29
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1078	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: 8.2.6 Any changes exceeding manufacturing tolerances made to the physical design or chemical composition of a high power rocket motor, motor reloading kit, or component(s) by a manufacturer after certification testing shall be reported to the recognized testing organization that originally granted the certification prior to sale or shipment. If the changes potentially affect characteristics measured in the original certification testing, that testing organization shall be permitted to require that samples of the changed product be submitted for testing. I think what is key here is that a change that could be beyond manufacturing tolerances was made to a certified reloading kit after the certification was granted. Since these changes could alter the measured thrust of the motor beyond tolerances and TMT was not notified of these changes, it is in violation of NFPA 1125 8.2.6. I don't know what happens to a motor if it violates NFPA but I would imagine that since the certification process if based on NFPA, it would no longer be certified. Since the redesigned motor is going to be recertified and there is bascially a recall on the old motors, this is a moot issue. -Aaron

10-13-2008 01:42 PM  #30
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: I think what is key here is that a change that could be beyond manufacturing tolerances was made to a certified reloading kit after the certification was granted. Since these changes could alter the measured thrust of the motor beyond tolerances and TMT was not notified of these changes, it is in violation of NFPA 1125 8.2.6. I don't know what happens to a motor if it violates NFPA but I would imagine that since the certification process if based on NFPA, it would no longer be certified. Since the redesigned motor is going to be recertified and there is bascially a recall on the old motors, this is a moot issue. -Aaron The applicable manufacturing tolerances on this motor are +/- 0.25" on the grain stack length, +/- 0.063" on grain diameter and +/- 10% on propellant mass. These are also the tolerances authorized in the DOT classification. We normally hold well within these limits but use the additional flexibility when necessary. In this case the propellant weight was adjusted from 2663 grams to 2603 grams, a 60 gram (2.3%) reduction. The motor was NOT in violation of NFPA 1125. If TMT prefers tighter tolerances beyond current manufacturing and DOT-permitted practice, it should write the appropriate standards to specify them.

10-13-2008 01:42 PM  #31
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Since the redesigned motor is going to be recertified and there is bascially a recall on the old motors, this is a moot issue. Now I'm confused. I didn't hear about any recall. I do see (in this thread) about a request to avoid flying them over 90 degrees Fahrenheit but I'm lost about a recall.

10-13-2008 01:49 PM  #32
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Now I'm confused. I didn't hear about any recall. I do see (in this thread) about a request to avoid flying them over 90 degrees Fahrenheit but I'm lost about a recall. You're right, there is no recall. There is a voluntary exchange offered if the customer so chooses.

10-13-2008 01:49 PM  #33
UncleVanya If pigs had fins...   Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 3640	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: The applicable manufacturing tolerances on this motor are +/- 0.25" on the grain stack length, +/- 0.063" on grain diameter and +/- 10% on propellant mass. These are also the tolerances authorized in the DOT classification. We normally hold well within these limits but use the additional flexibility when necessary. In this case the propellant weight was adjusted from 2663 grams to 2603 grams, a 60 gram (2.3%) reduction. The motor was NOT in violation of NFPA 1125. If TMT prefers tighter tolerances beyond current manufacturing and DOT-permitted practice, it should write the appropriate standards to specify them. Gary - are you willing to share what these changes have unofficially have done to the motor characteristics? I realize that the TMT testing may give slightly different results than your results - but we're all curious. Did redesigning this require any changes to the nozzle?

10-13-2008 01:55 PM  #34
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Gary - are you willing to share what these changes have unofficially have done to the motor characteristics? I realize that the TMT testing may give slightly different results than your results - but we're all curious. Did redesigning this require any changes to the nozzle? Didn't change the nozzle on the field mod. The revised version is closer to an M1500G with a little over 5200 N-sec. I think it uses the same nozzle too.

10-13-2008 02:04 PM  #35
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1078	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: Now I'm confused. I didn't hear about any recall. I do see (in this thread) about a request to avoid flying them over 90 degrees Fahrenheit but I'm lost about a recall. There is a known issue with the motors in some environments. The manufacturer has identified those issues and is making changes to fix them. They have offered to replace any motors in customer hands. Even though it wasn't officially called a recall, that is what I call it. My words, no one elses. -Aaron

10-13-2008 02:07 PM  #36
heada Certifiable   Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 1078	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: The applicable manufacturing tolerances on this motor are +/- 0.25" on the grain stack length, +/- 0.063" on grain diameter and +/- 10% on propellant mass. These are also the tolerances authorized in the DOT classification. We normally hold well within these limits but use the additional flexibility when necessary. In this case the propellant weight was adjusted from 2663 grams to 2603 grams, a 60 gram (2.3%) reduction. The motor was NOT in violation of NFPA 1125. If TMT prefers tighter tolerances beyond current manufacturing and DOT-permitted practice, it should write the appropriate standards to specify them. You didn't specify what the tolerances for core diameter is. It was my understanding that the modification was to the core width. Are there tolerances for core width and if so, what are they? Were the on-field changes within those tolerances? -Aaron

10-13-2008 03:22 PM  #37
Garoq In stock   Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 69	Re: Article: AeroTech hot weather advisory for M2030G reloads Quote: You didn't specify what the tolerances for core diameter is. It was my understanding that the modification was to the core width. Are there tolerances for core width and if so, what are they? Were the on-field changes within those tolerances? -Aaron One of the modifications was to the core diameter on one (aft) grain. The other modification was to the length of the grain stack. Core dimensions are not specified on the DOT supporting documents. That is generally where the +/- 10% propellant weight allowance is adjusted, as the length tolerance is more limited.

10-13-2008 04:35 PM  #38

Just Jerry